At what point does dishonesty become acceptable?

[iptech]

This is a hot subject and one that seems to be threatening to tear Technibble apart as these two recent threads illustrate.

http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19665

http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?p=154704#post154704

It seems among many of the "professional" technicians (I use the term loosly) here that it is acceptable to make false representation when presenting their businesses via websites, flyers etc. Clearly under UK Law it is a serious criminal offence and I would expect most developed countries offer similar legislation to protect consumers from unscrupoulous traders. This misrepresentation is most often demonstrated as:

1. False claim for professional certification and accrediatation;
2. False & fake customer testimonials;
3. Phoney trade & busness awards;
4. Sole traders masqurading as corporates with extensive infrastructures.

I know these some or all of these techniques are encouraged as legitimate marketing methods by those self-proclaimed "marketing gurus" who sell their "secrets of my success" type plans to the gullible who beleive there is a fast-track route to business success just by saying rather than doing, but I wonder how many of the genuine business owners on here feel that these practices are causing serious damage to the professional image of the Computer Repair Industry?

It does seem strange to me that if a Technibble member dares make mention of the use of pirate software, they are immediately banned. Why is it that the relatively minor offence of theft of say a £30 software package is correctly condemned, yet the far more serious offence of misrepresentation that is designed to net the perpetrator tens of thousands of £££££s is considered fair game to many? Let's not forget that the real financial victims of this crime are fellow Tech businesses.

Before the usual suspects kick in, might I just add that for me it's not about elitism; noob versus experienced tech; flaming; jealousy or any of the other lame accusations that are often levelled when these thorny issues are raised, it's about good old-fashined honesty, integrity and proessionalism. It's a big world out there, there's plenty of business to be had for the legitimate business owners and I believe Technibble was set up by Bryce to serve the common interests of these professionals. It maybe largely a sign of the tough economic times, but things have changed and Technibble is drowning under this creeping dishonesty and it's sad to see many of the more 'grounded' members no longer posting as a result.

I hope the flamers will resist and either keep silent in their guilt or add to this discussion in an intelligent, polite and considered manner.

Thoughts & opinions guys?

Cheers.

 

[Martyn]

Good post for discussion Iptech, better than getting involved in slanging matches elsewhere . You make some good points and no one would support people misrepresenting themselves(and the industry) it doen't bode well for any of us. The problem is because they can, as in the real world if you can get away with it people will always do it. Personally if it was my forum, if I found it out I would just ban them, full stop. People putting logos(or text) on their site which isn't true isn't down to a mistake, it's fraud(or whatever) from the outset. People know what they are doing and it probably gets more under your skin than most others, that's not against you, just how it is. Anyway my tuppence, I would just ban them.

 

[TLE]

+1 iptech - Great post, I think this is a subject which is long overdue been debated.

1. False claim for professional certification and accrediatation;
I really cannot abide anyone who does this , I devote a great deal of time to further my knowledge so that I can sit the latest certs. The issue here is that any tech falsely claiming they have certs or accreditations could be potentially taking clients from a legitimate tech that does have the credentials and the legal right to use them.


4. Sole traders masqurading as corporates with extensive infrastructures.
I have to admit I do use 'we' rather than 'I' on my website. This is something which still plays on my mind and I am undecided if I need to change this.

 

[NeutronTech]

Yeah, I have to agree. Especially to IPTech's point of whispering piracy results in being ganged up on by everyone and possibly being banned. While those making false claims or using misleading marketing ploys are tolerated.... sometimes even praised or copied. It is unacceptable for a company to lie about it's accreditations. Just like I feel it is unethical to use any type of misleading marketing techniques (although this is generally the accepted way to advertise in all industries).

I also think that any member of the acrbo, should be kicked out of that group if they misrepresent themselves. I mean, the acrbo is intended to be a seal of integrity, professionalism, and quality. Placing false claims on your website is certainly not ethical.

BTW, is there a way to report false partner claims, false accreditation claims, etc to their respect agencies?

 

[Martyn]

BTW, is there a way to report false partner claims, false accreditation claims, etc to their respect agencies?

I would have thought Microsoft would be interested, I know their guidelines are pretty tight on usage of logos etc. The business of I versus we is a difficult one and I don't think it comes under the umbrella of directly misleading by claiming membership. It's a marketing ploy and I was advised to use it. You could claim that you family take calls for you and therefore are part of the 'we'

 

[red12049]

I would have thought Microsoft would be interested, I know their guidelines are pretty tight on usage of logos etc. The business of I versus we is a difficult one and I don't think it comes under the umbrella of directly misleading by claiming membership. It's a marketing ploy and I was advised to use it. You could claim that you family take calls for you and therefore are part of the 'we'

I suppose that if you hold scrupulously to the truth, the *I* vs. *We* would be incorrect for some businesses. However, I've never met a perfect human being. I just do my best to adhere to the principles, and worry about the bigger stuff. Yes, I know that everyone has a different definition of "bigger stuff."

Rick

 

[Styxbound]

Honesty

This thread touches something which has bothered me a long time. though I've really been reluctant to say anything; I hope my remarks will be taken in the spirit I intend rather than as insulting which I certainly do not intend.

There's been a lot of discussion here about professionalism. To my mind one of the key aspects of professionalism is_or certainly should be_a dependable honesty in the way one presents oneself. I notice a pronounced trend in choosing business names to choose names which have a carnival air of hucksterism; they imply the owner is some sort of special gift from God; like commercials for toilet paper they seem to be trying to outdo everyone else with big claims of competence. To my mind it's not only fundamentally dishonest but casts a circus haze over the whole business.

I think if doctors, for example, started presenting themselves in the way so many computer repair people do they would instantly lose a great deal of whatever respect they still enjoy. The truth of that for those old enough to remember, is what happened to lawyers when they started advertising. If one wants a "big name" the proper way to get it, in my humble opinion, is to QUIETLY earn it and let that speak for itself.

I'm very much at odds with those who want more legal restrictions on us; that's a question of fundamental freedom of which we have very little left. But more meaningful certifications could possibly be helpful; we can also learn to claim only the level of competence we actually have.

 

[Elemdee]

The problem with the internet is that anyone can get away with anything, policing is an issue and becomes a nearly impossible task in so many situations.

 

[Bryce W]

http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19665

This guy gave his MCP and Comptia IDs when requested, but those reviews are definitely suspicious since they all have similar spelling and punctuation mistakes.

http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?p=154704#post154704

This guy definitely needs his ass kicked.

It seems among many of the "professional" technicians (I use the term loosly) here that it is acceptable to make false representation when presenting their businesses via websites, flyers etc. Clearly under UK Law it is a serious criminal offence and I would expect most developed countries offer similar legislation to protect consumers from unscrupoulous traders. This misrepresentation is most often demonstrated as:

1. False claim for professional certification and accrediatation;
2. False & fake customer testimonials;
3. Phoney trade & busness awards;
4. Sole traders masqurading as corporates with extensive infrastructures.

I know these some or all of these techniques are encouraged as legitimate marketing methods by those self-proclaimed "marketing gurus" who sell their "secrets of my success" type plans to the gullible who beleive there is a fast-track route to business success just by saying rather than doing, but I wonder how many of the genuine business owners on here feel that these practices are causing serious damage to the professional image of the Computer Repair Industry?

Noone is arguing with you there.

It does seem strange to me that if a Technibble member dares make mention of the use of pirate software, they are immediately banned. Why is it that the relatively minor offence of theft of say a £30 software package is correctly condemned, yet the far more serious offence of misrepresentation that is designed to net the perpetrator tens of thousands of £££££s is considered fair game to many? Let's not forget that the real financial victims of this crime are fellow Tech businesses.

Well, both are definitely bad but it comes down to enforceability. If someone comes here and someone asks how to crack their copies of Windows, then that thread gets reported and we ban them. As for misleading representations on their own sites, we cant check all the certifications, web reviews etc.. of everyone that joins.
Of course, once you bring it to our attention, then we can definitely do something about them. I checked back at your past reported posts in case we missed you reporting these guys and they appear to be just spammers/flamers/useless threads that you were reporting (and definitely thank you for doing so). We have systems in place for dealing with things like this, just click the report icon and we'll deal with it. These forums are large and we cant watch every single thread all the time, but reporting posts brings them to our attention.

Of course, we cant control the problems that the industry has, and it has plenty of them. Until there is some government regulated system then there probably wont be. Any group that tries to is really just a club. It needs massive financial backing to support TV ads, wages for enforcement officers etc.. Even if there is a government system there will still be shady people that DO have the correct qualifications. Technibble isnt the police of the industry either so I cant go out hunting on technicians sites for misrepresentations, but I do try to educate computer technicians (get insured, get right with your accountant etc..) that are here on this site.

I DO have control what happens on this site and who posts here. I agree that people doing dodgy things like this should be booted.

Just report them, show your findings, we'll check and we'll ban them.
If you want to pursue them beyond this by reporting them to Microsoft and any other authorities, thats up to you.

 

[14049752]

Personally, I think that dishonesty has been tolerated for quite some time on the forums (but in a different way than you're suggesting). There are plenty of idiots on here calling themselves techs, but their only technical skill is the ability to run Mbam and TDSS killer, then ask for help on everything else. The dishonesty there is that they're pretending to be professional techs to us and to their customers. When anyone calls them out on it, hoards of people get angry and excuses are made for them...while the persons calling them out are reported, labeled elitists, etc. I guess that might fall under "fake credentials", in a harder to define way.


As far as the rest, fake testimonials and fake certs are a sore spot for me. I have local competitors doing both in extreme ways. One such idiot had about 30 google reviews before his website or business even launched. What can you do to stop stuff like that, in the real world? Barely anything, honestly.

 

[Martyn]

Here is the link to the Microsoft logo guidelines.

http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/en/us/IntellectualProperty/Trademarks/Usage/Logo.aspx

 

[Puff]

4. Sole traders masqurading as corporates with extensive infrastructures.
I have to admit I do use 'we' rather than 'I' on my website. This is something which still plays on my mind and I am undecided if I need to change this.

I do the same thing however, I do not find it to be a misrepresentation because for me "We" represents the company and myself which are two separate entities.

"We will match any price" is a term that would be used by a business.
"I will match any price" would by used by someone working on the side.

 

[MrUnknown]

Well. I am one of those iptech has accused me of false testimonials because I changed the submitted ones that had my personal name in it, to my business name, corrected spelling and got approval of my client to make those changes before posting them on my website.

So, you all can shun me if you want, considering that is what iptech calls falsifying a testimony. As for completely made up testimonies, of course that is wrong but there is no obvious way to prove they are false in any particular situation.

Using "we" when referring to your business is common practice. If you want to get into stupid legalities that might affect this, a corporation is a separate entity and using "I" to describe it can cause legal issues if you are sued as you are not the corporation. Sure you are the sole shareholder, executive, director, secretary, treasurer and employee, but the business is another person.

I will use "I" when speaking to a client, but when referring to my business I use "we" or its name directly. I don't see this as any issue. If you truly have something against it, then don't do it, but someone else isn't a liar because of it.

As for the 4 points originally brought up in the OP, neither myself or my business participates in any of those. My clients know I work out of my home, by myself and that anything outside of that is done through partnerships. I don't advertise certifications because I don't have any and I tell my client exactly how I learned everything I know if they ask or bring it up. I have lost business in the past due to not having any certifications.

Complaining about marketing toolkits is a waste of time. Yes, people use them. No, there is nothing wrong with it unless you flat out lie in them, just like any other marketing. Simple question, which will pull in more customers?

"Tired of your current IT support company never answering when you call? Do they even call you back?"

or

"Does your current IT support company answer the phone almost every time you call? Do they quickly call you back when they are unable to answer?"

Guess what, there are IT support companies that treat their customers like crap. There is nothing misleading about that. Sure, you might be slightly insulted because, well they obviously are stating that your business is crap, right? No. You treat your clients great, why would they go looking elsewhere for the same service? They wont. The above marketing questions are no different than "Don't like the taste of Pepsi? Try Coke!" and if that offends you, then, well I don't know what to say.

 

[Mushin]

There is a lot of information and this topic is a very good discussion.

First... I hope that we can keep it in a conversational/debate for so that everyone can learn from it.

Some of the topics that I have found particularly interesting are.

1.) The use of other company logo's
As stated most companies will not allow you to use their logo without permission and will only allow you to do so if you follow their strict policies. using logos without permission is trade mark infringment and that is illegal. By using these trademarks you are playing off the success of that company and misrepreseting who you are. It is pretty cut and dry.... don't do it.

2.) Fasle and Fake customer testimonials
To clarify... you can edit testomonials for content, spelling, and overall flow of the text much like an editor would but you should keep the same basic information and not embellish the content. You can not make up stuff but it happens all the time. We have several testomonials that we solicited from customers or were given without us asking. In nearly all instances these were edited down in size and made to flow better in the marketing material in which they were used. Also in all instanaces the modified copy was given to the client for their review and a chance for them to verify that we were not misrepresenting what they said in the original. If you want testomonials do good work and ask for them.

3.) Companies acting bigger than they are.
This is a very hard subject to tackle. The use of "we" and other plural wording is not a misrepresentation of the size, scope, or capeabilites of your business so you should not be concerned with using "we." Where real problems exist is if you represent your company to be bigger in size, scope, and capeabilites than it is but you could not reasonably fullfill those components. For this I will use my company.

We are a local company that sits stategicly near the borders of three counties and we sice all three of these counties from a single physical location. We also serve an additional 5 to 6 counties with onsite services. Finally we provide remote support services Nationally.

Looking at our branding many people wonder if we are a National Chain or Franchines. Our answer at the moment is (No...) but it is a goal of mine. I do tell people that we are however able to service computers nationally because we can. Although I do not have staff outside of the state I do have avenues for providing our entire service offering nationally.

Additionally we regularly perform transactions Internationally so in essence we are now a company with customers around the world. Is it right to promote our National and International reach even though we are not a large corporation? Now... you can see the gray areas..

 

[lassenpc]

BTW, is there a way to report false partner claims, false accreditation claims, etc to their respect agencies?

In the US it has been in the past a rather gray area in regards to internet 'boasting', if you will. However the FTC just slammed Reverb for posting fake app reviews in the iTunes store FTC But that is a bigger fish.

For the smaller fish, in California (and most other states I believe) we are required by law to be licensed with the Bureau of Electronic & Appliance Repair (BEAR), which is a subdivision of California's DCA Dept of Consumer Affairs.

Any repair business that 'misrepresents itself' in any way shape or form can be reported to BEAR and they do follow up. If an individual is operating without a license and is reported, they are also fined for not having a license as well as dealing with the original complaint. In CA, complaints can be filed here.

The DCA here is quite proactive; they contacted me my first year in business for 'misrepresentation' Apparently, the fine print of the law requires that your address be posted with your ads. Being a mobile service only at the time, I was only listing our toll free number (didn't want walkins to my house). Yeah... I didn't know that until they looked at my yellowpage ad and they sent me a notice of violation. Ugh. Lesson learned.

For areas without a DCA / regulatory agency in the US, the State Attorney Generals Office for that State can also investigate fraudulent claims.

 

[Puff]

Something I've been looking into to make my company appear bigger is to get some extra Skype numbers in major cities that all ring at my desk here in little ole Pearland Texas.

Chicago xxx-xxx-xxxx
Houston xxx-xxx-xxxx
New York xxx-xxx-xxxx
San Francisco xxx-xxx-xxxx

Still not sure if I should go with San Francisco or Los Angeles....what do you think?

 

[MrUnknown]

Still not sure if I should go with San Francisco or Los Angeles....what do you think?

For the cost of a virtual number, get them all

 

[MobileTechie]

I'm not sure I'm inclined to take all that seriously people who remain anonymous yet speak about other members and their websites and business practices. It seems a little one-sided to criticise others yet not open yourself to the same criticism.

 

[iptech]

I'm not sure I'm inclined to take all that seriously people who remain anonymous yet speak about other members and their websites and business practices. It seems a little one-sided to criticise others yet not open yourself to the same criticism.

Your call. The reason I haven't posted by website URLs here is because I can't foresee recruiting any business from Technibble members as I operate in a small small localised geographic area, also to protects against the risks of plagiarism and malicious activity against my business interests. Many members choose not to post their business details, this does not reflect on their integrity. I have nothing to hide in my business activities and most of my growth has been through word-of-mouth, I take great pride in my honesty and business conduct and believe this has been important for my own business success - I will not put that at risk.

I raised this thread to open an intelligent debate on a matter that clearly is important to many techs on here. If you don't wish to partake at this level, please keep your malice for elsewhere.

 

[Puff]

Your call. The reason I haven't posted by website URLs here is because I can't foresee recruiting any business from Technibble members as I operate in a small small localised geographic area, also to protects against the risks of plagiarism and malicious activity against my business interests.

C'mon, post the url and let us have a good look at it. My botnet needs a fresh victim.