Decision time: Datto, Hyper-V replica or something in between?

[timeshifter]

In a recent thread you guys helped guide me toward some options for a hot spare or failover solution for a client. I’m “this close” to saying “I do” with Datto, but I don’t know.

I’ve got their USB key to convert my client’s old server to a Sirus device. Was close to installing it until I learned that they highly recommend 32GB of RAM and we’ve only got 16GB. The idea was to set it up, get cozy with it, then demo it to my client.

BUT…, I have no idea how the client will react. Well, maybe some idea, but still. I’d like to give them choices. A good, better, best with Datto being the best. I’m thinking:

GOOD: Hyper-V replication
BETTER: Veeam, Solar Winds, Altaro
BEST: Datto

GOOD: I’ve set up a couple servers and experimented with Hyper-V replication in my lab, so I’m a little bit comfortable with it. Being able to get that going would be a good option - just some software and setup time with their old server, and in line with what I think their expectations are.

BETTER: Like Veeam a little bit from one install. Like their Endpoint free stuff. But feel like I’m missing out on a good mid-range offering. Never gotten my hands dirty with Altaro or Solar Winds.

BEST: My hope is that they’d look at Datto and go “sure, that makes sense, we can’t afford to be down or lose data….”. I’m not concerned about how much I’d make or not make. It gives me the most peace of mind right now.

At this point I could come up with proposals for the GOOD and BEST options, but need to think through and learn a little more about the BETTER option.

Could anyone recommend anything that might help me clarify my thinking? I’d appreciate it!

 

[fencepost]

One thing that may be useful (and which I'm going to be using in attempting to get our backup setup improved) is the ransomware problem at Greenway Health around April 24. I have two clients that lost access to their EMR and billing for 9 days, because Greenway was using a system of "We have the original server image, plus nightly file-based backups." If they needed to restore a backup they'd basically redeploy from a template server image, reconfigure, restore data files. That was fine and dandy until they managed to get hit with ransomware that impacted 400+ clients and they were faced with that as a rebuild process.

I actually haven't talked with one this week, the other was back up on Monday but as of Wednesday afternoon still didn't have any of their scanned documents back.

Image-based backups that can be virtualized seem pretty expensive.... Until you look at the cost of several days (or more) of downtime.

 

[freedomit]

Have you looked at Azure Site Recovery which uses HyperV Replica?

 

[timeshifter]

Have you looked at Azure Site Recovery which uses HyperV Replica?

No, but I will. Thanks!

 

[Krynn72]

In my experience, people who have hired me usually want me to make tech decisions for them. They don't want to hear all these different confusing options with a ton of different prices.

It's bad for you too because when you give them a bunch of options whose tech jargon confused them, they will go with the one aspect they understand... The money. They will just pick the cheap option, or sometimes the middle option because they literally don't understand the differences. So they interpret a "good better best" situation as "barebones, sufficient, overkill" deal.

You're their tech guy, so come at them with the best solution for their tech needs, ignoring their budget (which you're likely making assumptions about anyways). Explain how this best fits their business, how it keeps them up and working with negligible down time even in a major disaster scenario. Etc.

They will love the features, but if it's not in their budget then they'll have to ask you for an alternative. At least this way they will have a better understanding of the features and what they're giving up.

 

[trevm999]

I would be running some kind of backup alongside Hyper-V Replica

 

[timeshifter]

It's bad for you too because when you give them a bunch of options whose tech jargon confused them, they will go with the one aspect they understand... The money. They will just pick the cheap option, or sometimes the middle option because they literally don't understand the differences. So they interpret a "good better best" situation as "barebones, sufficient, overkill" deal.

Yeah, I see this in people all the time (not just my clients). They don't understand the benefits of something and they just throw their hands in the air and cheap out.

In my experience, people who have hired me usually want me to make tech decisions for them. They don't want to hear all these different confusing options with a ton of different prices.

That's the way it's worked for me and my clients for over a decade. I tell them what they need because I think it's the best fit, not because I'm selling it. I charge for my labor and my advice. I don't sell products or get any kind of kickbacks or am a reseller for anything. If I do buy parts or other things for my clients I charge them my cost. If it's a complex order like a server I will bill them for a couple of hours for picking it out and ordering it.

This arrangement has worked well for me and my clients. I like it because I can focus on what they need and what's best for them. If something better comes along there's no friction in switching. I think the clients like it too because they don't have to worry about shopping around or making sure that I'm not trying to sell them something they don't need.

That's why I'm struggling to say "hey, you should get this Datto service, I think it's the best fit for your needs" because it should be priced to them at Datto's cost to me plus some markup. I guess I could sell it at my cost and say I'm going charge you a flat 1.5 hours per month to manage it, that way it's transparent. If I could do that of find a way to get it to them in a transparent, non-biased manner, as their consultant not as their salesman, I'd be more comfortable with it.

 

[marley1]

Altaro is great for low cost. Backup to local Nas or host or even the old server.

Boot from backup as needed.

Send offsite.

Or bdr is with old server and veeam or stoargecrsft.

Hyper V replica in 2012r2 and newrr will do revisions

 

[Sky-Knight]

I use Shadowprotect to start, and Datto for BDR.

If you want offsite replication, Datto. Baseline StorageCraft pricing for offsite storage is horrible. I wouldn't rely on Replica as a backup, because it isn't. There is no time based retention, that's just a transfer mechanism.

And well, when the excrement hits the fan at two AM only Datto is going to be on the phone dealing with that so you can deal with the rest of it and get back to bed.

How you price Datto is up to you, I've got customers where the cost is a pass through, others were I make a few bucks. It all just depends on how much effort I have to sink into them to keep them alive. And whatever else they are spending of course.

 

[marley1]

Datto is Storage craft

You can partner with efolder

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

What are your clients needs? We offer different tiers of backup services.
Solarwinds BDR is in the middle
Datto is at the top.

Ask your client what they need for getting back up and running again. If their server catches fire and melts to a pile, or a flood or fire takes down their office...servers and local backup appliances too....illustrate the different backup/D-R/Business continuity scenarios...how long it will take to get them accessing their data again..and let them make the decision. You know, time it takes to order a replacement server (without compromising on the only "we can ship just this model overnight" settle for crap). Time to install the base OS, restore, etc.

If giving you a week or so to get them up and running, low price, some entry level product would work.
If the client needs to be back up and running in a day or two..a mid range product.
if the client needs to be back up and running in under 2 hours or an hour or less...Datto.

Do you want a service that makes you sweat and work hard to get a client back up and running while they're pacing behind you looking over your shoulder? Or do you want something easy..a few clients, done, easy peasy.

And why would you not want to make money from this?

 

[timeshifter]

if the client needs to be back up and running in under 2 hours or an hour or less...Datto.

They definitely want to be up and running under 2 hours or even less. They've made that part clear.

And why would you not want to make money from this?

I guess it's because I've been a break fix business forever. I work as a consultant not a salesman. I'm comfortable with that model. My clients are comfortable. They don't feel the need to competitively shop what I offer. I don't have to worry about competition and spend lots of non-billable hours figuring out pricing and configuring systems.

I'd be happy to make money when it breaks and scramble to get them up and running. That's what I've always done (although they've never really been down... knock wood). But, like you said I would like something in place so I don't have to sweat it (and they don't either).

The problem is, I do want to make money. If I were to offer Datto in a way that's consistent with how I've always done business I would simply sell it to them at my cost.... and then charge them for the actual time I work on it.

 

[Sky-Knight]

The problem with that thinking is you're shorting yourself and your customers. Good IT is a regular investment, a constant effort, not a call when it breaks deal. Break fix is like using the ER for your medical care, it just doesn't end well.

And Datto isn't getting your clients back online in 2 hours. Ok well it CAN if the server is small and you're setup correctly. The continuity is utterly based on their ability to virtualize that platform and bring it online, and access to it on the far side of that VPN is horrible over their internet. It can get the job done, but you must be aware of the limits. Even if you go Siris and virtualize locally, those 7200rpm disks are only good for so much.

But all that said, not having to worry about it and dump time into it to maintain it is king. I save my clients enough support hours every month to justify that cost. Because I'm not billing them testing and maintaining backups.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

The problem is, I do want to make money. If I were to offer Datto in a way that's consistent with how I've always done business I would simply sell it to them at my cost.... and then charge them for the actual time I work on it.

Ouch.
Typical backup model...double to triple your cost, depending on other MSP services they have.

 

[timeshifter]

Well, double my cost would be the same as adding 1.5 hours per month.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

And Datto isn't getting your clients back online in 2 hours. .

We've done it plenty of times in under 2 hours...in under half an hour.
While yes the "Alto" model is light in performance....remember...it's for bare minimum D/R, keeping the important people going when the server room floated down the river in a hurricane, or burnt to a crisp in a fire. If the client wants top performance during a D/R....the IT guy should wisely recommend a higher grade Siris model with multiple CPUs and oodles of RAM and fast disks..SSDs even. It's about learning the product and knowing which model to recommend/sell the client.

And while on the subject of virtualization, for the OP, OEM licensing need not apply. One of the draw-backs of OEM server licensing is, you're screwed when coming up with D/R plans. remember...OEM licensing lives and dies with the hardware it was purchased on. If you plan to "spin up" a VHD or VMDK on some appliance during disaster recovery...whoops..yup..that's new hardware.

Yes you'll hear some techs say "Get on the phone with Microsoft, they'll give you a temp key and you can upgrade, blah blah"....during a disaster recovery do you really want to spend a day or three on the phone with overseas Microsoft support trying to get that done? With your client pacing a groove in the carpet behind you asking "Is it up yet? Is it up yet? Coming..I'm losing money..is it back up yet?"

With servers, Volume licensing...volume licensing...volume licensing.

 

[marley1]

Datto is great till you run it in cloud and realize your LOB doesn't work over VPN.

Only handy if you have a terminal server available.

Go veeam or stiragecraft or altaro, backup to spare server and offsite it. Done deal fraction of cost with same benefits

 

[timeshifter]

Datto is great till you run it in cloud and realize your LOB doesn't work over VPN.

Only handy if you have a terminal server available.

Go veeam or stiragecraft or altaro, backup to spare server and offsite it. Done deal fraction of cost with same benefits

Datto makes two products: Sirus and Alto. Sirus can act as a local hot spare. Alto is less expensive and can only boot up a VM in the cloud.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Datto is great till you run it in cloud and realize your LOB doesn't work over VPN.

Only handy if you have a terminal server available.

Go veeam or stiragecraft or altaro, backup to spare server and offsite it. Done deal fraction of cost with same benefits

If you, the "consultant", recommended an Alto to a client with a slow internet pipe and multiple servers running "heavy" apps....what is to blame, the Alto, or the consultant?

We, the IT guys, should work with the client, explain the different products, look at the clients needs, factor in what the client has, and recommend the best product. Alto does work great for many people, applications can run through a VPN tunnel and work for a handful of key people during disaster time...or more people if the internet pipe is fatter. But if the client has multiple servers, and/or heavier apps, and/or a need for many more people to access the servers/apps during a disaster...obviously a Siris was the product to recommend. That can spin up all the servers and get them up and running in under a half hour on the network.

 

[marley1]

I don't recommend either. I know the differences.

In both scenarios if your client site burns down and you need to run in the cloud what can you really do?

If they have no computers you need to setup a VPN and start joining machines to domain etc to access files.

If client has a line of business app that doesn't work over VPN what will you do?

Take even the smallest program like QB. How will the client access of they are running in cloud?

Now if your client has a local terminal server and their site burns down sure spin up in cloud and let them access it...