Fujitsu Siemens AH532 Battery Issues.

[Kitten Kong]

Hi everyone, I have a client with a funny battery problem, if anyone can shed some insight please, it's be much appreciated.

Aug '14

Laptop comes into the workshop - client mentions that the battery does not hold a charge.

The laptop initially fails to boot up (battery symbol appears orange), if the battery is installed. Remove the battery and the laptop booted.

Tested the adapter, and the correct voltage was found.
Tested the DC socket, and found this was working fine.

Therefore diagnosed as the battery required replacement.

Compat battery cost (to client) £44.59.
New Original battery £88.50

Noted on the WO that the compatible battery, and one we would NOT recommend installing it in the laptop.

Client wished for a compatible replacement battery.

** Noted on the wo it is against our recommendations. Should anything occur with this battery, and it damages the laptop, we are NOT holding any responsibility for such actions. **

Ordered the battery, installed it, and everything was fine until Jan 15.

1st Jan, client calls round, with the exact same issue again.

Did the same tests as previous, adapter, and dc socket tested fine.

Diagnosed as the battery failing.

RMA'd the battery, new one comes, installed, handed back to the client.

All is well until this morning, and the exact same thing occurs again.

This time, I am seriously thinking there is something else wrong with the laptop. It cannot be the battery again (3rd one).

The laptop is of a good spec, I3, 8GB Ram. Just over 2 years old.

I am unsure as to what to check for now. Could anyone please help, with where to go next?

 

[citizensmith]

Does the battery go flat if removed from laptop ? Is he charging the battery properley - maybe forgets to turn on socket \ power strip?
How long does it take to go flat in normal use ? 1 1/2 hours ? "Doesn't hold charge" compared to... kindle, phone ....
Sorry no real ideas
'

 

[Kitten Kong]

I'm not sure if the battery goes flat after removal from the laptop. No real way of testing this, as it fails to power up, with the battery installed.

It is charging correctly. I've had it on charge since this morning, and nada. No life at all.

Flat in normal use.. approx 2 hours. Normal for this battery. Client mentions that the does not hold charge, as in, charges the battery, unplugs the adapter, laptop fails to start. Exact same issues as I am experiencing right now.

Thanks for the input though

 

[NJW]

It cannot be the battery again (3rd one).

Agreed, it's suspicious, but these are probably recycled cells if it's a 'cheap' compatible. Also consider that the battery is fine for a couple of months, apparently.

You mentioned the charger voltage, but does the voltage hold up under load? Have you tried a different charger?

The battery itself takes care of most of its functions, so provided there is a charging voltage on the connector, the laptop may not have much to do with it, though this Battery University page gives a bit more information on battery terminal functions. Are all the laptop battery terminals in good condition?

Do you have a bench power supply with ammeter? Power the laptop from that and see if/how much the current changes when the battery is inserted.

If the battery is sufficiently low on charge, it may take many hours (laptop off, battery and charger connected) to resume normal charge operation, provided a battery cell hasn't dipped below its absolute minimum voltage threshold.

More information is needed on client activity. Is this the main computer? Is it stored in sleep mode for weeks at a time, between occasional use?

It is charging correctly. I've had it on charge since this morning, and nada. No life at all.

Can you clarify this?

 

[mr m]

It's a long shot but it would pay to retest the adapter and DC jack. Wiggle the jack while monitoring the voltage. Same with the adapter. Wiggle the AC power cord along its length as well as the DC out wire. Also lightly tap the adapter with a screwdriver handle or whatever while monitoring its output to see if it chokes. A second set of hands will make it easier.

I've seen wires break internally from stress even though the outer jacket looks good.

 

[Moltuae]

The laptop initially fails to boot up (battery symbol appears orange), if the battery is installed. Remove the battery and the laptop booted.

That sounds to me like a power supply fault, possibly a supply smoothing issue that is causing fluctuations and damaging the batteries.

How did you test the power adaptor? Testing the DC level with a multimeter can be misleading, especially if you use a cheaper digital multimeter, since you'll generally see just an average DC measurement. If there's symmetrical AC ripples on the DC output, they can average-out, giving a false impression that output is normal.

I would 'scope the output and look for AC ripples. Failing that, you could try switching your multimeter to AC to see if it registers anything (though this would be inconclusive if it indicates zero volts since it will probably miss transient ripples).

 

[Martyn]

That sounds to me like a power supply fault, possibly a supply smoothing issue that is causing fluctuations and damaging the batteries.

How did you test the power adaptor? Testing the DC level with a multimeter can be misleading, especially if you use a cheaper digital multimeter, since you'll generally see just an average DC measurement. If there's symmetrical AC ripples on the DC output, they can average-out, giving a false impression that output is normal.

I would 'scope the output and look for AC ripples. Failing that, you could try switching your multimeter to AC to see if it registers anything (though this would be inconclusive if it indicates zero volts since it will probably miss transient ripples).

Or just give him a new power supply on loan/sell. It's pretty much all it can be.

 

[HCHTech]

Do you have a bench power supply with ammeter?

I don't have anything to add to the discussion, but I'm interested in this piece of equipment. If anyone has one, what make & model do you have and how much did you pay? Most of the models I've looked at in the past don't seem targeted at our industry. It looks like you might have to take a universal charger wire and strip it out to manually connect to the screw terminals on most of the units I saw.

 

[Moltuae]

Or just give him a new power supply on loan/sell. It's pretty much all it can be.

Agreed.

Even so, I would still want to check the supply output with a 'scope. Better to have conclusive confirmation.

 

[NJW]

It looks like you might have to take a universal charger wire and strip it out to manually connect to the screw terminals on most of the units I saw.

You only need one cable, with a standard 2.1/5.5 mm plug, and a set of these adapters, for example.

Alternatively, there's the Leicke Universal that @Martyn refers to in this thread.

 

[Kitten Kong]

Thanks everyone for your hints and tips.

Right to go through everything..

Have you tried a different charger?

Yes, both with an adapter from a spare machine (same V & W), same occurs. And with my universal adapter.. same occurs.

Are all the laptop battery terminals in good condition?

. Yes.

Do you have a bench power supply with ammeter?

No, I don't tbh, have never even heard of them prior to your post.. :/

If the battery is sufficiently low on charge, it may take many hours (laptop off, battery and charger connected) to resume normal charge operation, provided a battery cell hasn't dipped below its absolute minimum voltage threshold.

Laptop has been on charge now for owell in excess of 18 hours, and is still currently showing as holding 2% charge.

More information is needed on client activity. Is this the main computer? Is it stored in sleep mode for weeks at a time, between occasional use?

This is their main machine. As far as I know, it is not stored in sleep mode what so ever.

It's a long shot but it would pay to retest the adapter and DC jack. Wiggle the jack while monitoring the voltage. Same with the adapter. Wiggle the AC power cord along its length as well as the DC out wire. Also lightly tap the adapter with a screwdriver handle or whatever while monitoring its output to see if it chokes. A second set of hands will make it easier.

I've seen wires break internally from stress even though the outer jacket looks good.

Retested the Adapter and DC jack. Both again test perfectly. No power fluctuations whilst wiggling the adapter or dc.

Even so, I would still want to check the supply output with a 'scope. Better to have conclusive confirmation.

I do not have a scope, or access to one.

I'm now coming to the conclusion that it is the charging circuit on the board which is causing the fault. Everything else has been practically ruled out, unless anyone has another idea?

If it is the charging circuit, then I do not think the client will proceed with the repair. Especially if past work is anything to go by. As they wouldn't opt for the original battery, and wanted the compat. But who knows right now, until I speak to them.

 

[Moltuae]

I do not have a scope, or access to one.

I'm now coming to the conclusion that it is the charging circuit on the board which is causing the fault. Everything else has been practically ruled out, unless anyone has another idea?.

I'd say a motherboard fault is certainly a possibility.

With a 'scope you could've ruled the power supply out (or in) with confidence.

I've got a spare, ex-NATO 'scope; it's yours if you want it. If I ever get the time to call in for that cuppa', I'll try to remember to bring it.

It's a bit old (I'm talking like, cold-war era; nearly as old as me), but it works perfectly.

Actual photos:
http://imgur.com/7TUdU8W
http://imgur.com/RuD8AX3
http://imgur.com/oFACNZG
http://imgur.com/tj5rwAw
http://imgur.com/APQM6Gl
http://imgur.com/cTarKQZ

 

[Kitten Kong]

Thanks mate, I wouldn't know what to do with that thing at all lol.

Have to admit, it does look cool, all nato'd.

I've passed my findings over to my client, given them a couple of options.

Either have the board replaced, repaired, or keep the battery removed, and use it with the adapter only. Bypassing the battery.

Have a good idea it'll be option 3. IE cheapest fix.

 

[Moltuae]

Thanks mate, I wouldn't know what to do with that thing at all lol.

I could teach you how to use it in less than 5 minutes. You'd figure it out in no time.

Actually, the older analogue 'scopes are a doddle to learn how to use, especially compared with some of the newer digital stuff. My daily 'scope is a Tektronix DPO4034, exactly like this one; I've probably had it 4+ years, and I'm still learning new things it can do every time I use it!

 

[NJW]

Right to go through everything.

Oh, well. The only other suggestion would be to get the motherboard out, battery and charger connected, and see what's on the battery + & - terminals, but I can't see your client going for that.

I've got a spare, ex-NATO 'scope

I used to repair those, in the olden days.

 

[citizensmith]

I used to repair those, in the olden days.

Now I feel old.
Given the random backgrounds around here maybe we should have a "do you remember" thread. ?
Lecher bars anyone?
That's pronounced "Lekker"

 

[Moltuae]

Oh, well. The only other suggestion would be to get the motherboard out, battery and charger connected, and see what's on the battery + & - terminals, but I can't see your client going for that.

I used to repair those, in the olden days.

Me too. Although not 'scopes in general, just the various 'scopes I owned/used in my work over the years, as an electronics repair and design engineer. The Gould 'scopes were actually one of the easier ones to repair and work on I found.

In fact I repaired, refurbished and recalibrated this one a few years ago. It's been sat on a shelf ever since. It's just too good to throw away.