I was just thinking...

[Mike McCall]

(...which doesn't always turn out well), that I might be able to offset the increase in power consumption of my DL380 by virtualizing my network and run thin clients instead. Sure, I'd have a single point of failure, but I could easily devise a work around for connectivity in a home environment like mine. Using say, VirtualBox, I could spin up nearly any environment I wanted and not have to deal with individual hardware clients. I had delusions of being able to completely offset the increased power consumption of the server by the decreased consumption of the thin clients. Well, until I looked a bit closer.

From what I'm reading, there isn't much of a savings up front. Instead of being less expensive due to the lack of moving parts (fans, HDD's), thin clients seem to run mostly in the $300 - $500 range. Yeah, that's cheaper than a good business class workstation, but not a direct comparison to my internal devices which are consumer grade desktops. Apparently, there's also a yearly cost to the software that allows one to truly virtualize their desktop environment. I admit that I don't yet have a good grasp of the difference between spinning up a virtual machine on a server and a truly virtualized desktop environment. I may be confusing aspects of both.

I like the idea of running everything on the server and using thin clients to access everything, at least in theory. The potential to save some energy costs and maintenance hassle has my attention. However, the more I looked into this the more confusing it became. It seems that I could run into licensing costs that would wipe out any savings I may have thought I could gain and turn it into a loss. Apparently MS allows 2 connections via RDP and charges for more.

Apparently, I could set up VM's on the server and access them remotely, but that's not the same thing as a virtual desktop. The first still requires a desktop with a HDD and OS, while the second omits the HDD in favor of a firmware embedded OS for remote access to the server, which then provides the desktop environment for the client. At least that's how I understand the difference at this point.

Still, I'm not finding a compelling reason to pursue a virtualized desktop environment in my circumstance. I like the idea in theory, but the practical costs of applying it seem to get muddy rather quickly for me. Perhaps it's more practical for large distributed companies and hostile environments where a conventional workstation with fans and HDD would suffer. Another unicorn?

 

[Slaters Kustum Machines]

There is an option that allows you to use Raspberry Pi's as thin clients. I'll see if I can dig up the link.

Edit: http://rpitc.blogspot.com/

 

[TAPtech]

Well, how many clients are we talking about here?

 

[Mike McCall]

There is an option that allows you to use Raspberry Pi's as thin clients. I'll see if I can dig up the link.

Edit: http://rpitc.blogspot.com/

Thanks, I'll read up on it. Been curious about those for awhile now anyway, so this might be an excuse to play with them.

 

[Mike McCall]

Well, how many clients are we talking about here?

I have 6 - 7 devices I'd like to use this way for various reasons.

 

[fencepost]

Is there a particular reason the thin clients need to be the current models? Obviously you don't want really ancient ones or old non-updateable ones like the 1200LE, but depending on what you're connecting to you can get some of them pretty cheap.

Even if you need to connect to Windows Server 2012 with NLA, etc. you can likely find some options used - I'd use this page as a reference: http://wyse.vecmar.com/winterm/default.htm check the model numbers for Windows CE 6, Windows Embedded Standard 7 (or maybe 2009? Looks like 2009 was XP based but included RDP 6.1) like a C90LE7.

Still, at the prices those draw a Raspberry Pi might still be a better option, throw in a case for $10 or less and just be on your way.

 

[Mike McCall]

Is there a particular reason the thin clients need to be the current models? Obviously you don't want really ancient ones or old non-updateable ones like the 1200LE, but depending on what you're connecting to you can get some of them pretty cheap.

Even if you need to connect to Windows Server 2012 with NLA, etc. you can likely find some options used - I'd use this page as a reference: http://wyse.vecmar.com/winterm/default.htm check the model numbers for Windows CE 6, Windows Embedded Standard 7 (or maybe 2009? Looks like 2009 was XP based but included RDP 6.1) like a C90LE7.

Still, at the prices those draw a Raspberry Pi might still be a better option, throw in a case for $10 or less and just be on your way.

No, I can't say that there is. I don't yet know enough about whatever compatibility issues there may be to rule anything out.

My general plan (in abstract), is to completely rebuild my internal network (moving most networking devices downstairs and minimize exposed cabling in a home built in 1910), to purchase an MS Action Pack (to provide access to software both to run internally and to learn on), to convert remaining main floor devices to WIFI (except for Ooma VOIP), and effectively move my business downstairs as discussed here:

https://www.technibble.com/forums/threads/i-have-a-plan.68800/

Part of that plan includes moving the repurposed workstation currently working as my DNS, DHCP, AD DS, and learning lab server to the workbench. I'd like to be able to put the DL380 into service full-time in its place. To do that I would like to offset the additional power consumption costs if possible. That's what got me looking at thin clients in the first place. It didn't take long for me to see that to run a true virtual desktop where each device has it's own instance is beyond my current understanding. It's more than just remoting into the server and spinning up a VM. Besides, my wife will not go for having to do that herself, so it must be nearly as seamless as a regular desktop for her.

The used prices listed at Vecmar you reference above are more in line with what I was expecting a thin client to cost - showing what I come into this knowing. I just had to look up what NLA is and will have to read up on it as well. A Raspberry Pi is still intriguing though.

 

[Markverhyden]

To be honest I don't think you will make a meaningful change to your power bill by virtualizing a bunch of machines. Unless most of them are conventional desktops like Optiplex, etc. Of course it would be a great experience in learning the current state of the art.

 

[Mike McCall]

To be honest I don't think you will make a meaningful change to your power bill by virtualizing a bunch of machines. Unless most of them are conventional desktops like Optiplex, etc. Of course it would be a great experience in learning the current state of the art.

From what I can find, a typical PC uses between 60 and 300 Watts, with an average (some say) of about 100Watts. I have 2 Mac Mini's and found this about their power consumption:

Mac mini (Late 2009)
2.26GHz or 2.53GHz Core 2 Duo, 4GB 1066 DDR3 SDRAM (2x2GB), 320GB 5400RPM, built in GeForce 9400M, SuperDrive
Power Consumption Thermal Output
Idle Max Idle Max
14 W 110 W 48 BTU/h 376 BTU/h

I also have an Asus VivoPC and found this:

Assuming a mix of idle and use, the mini's might average 50Watts ea. and the VivoPC maybe 35 Watts. Combined with the Dell workstation and wife's PC (assuming 100 Watts ea.) that's about 335 Watts. A Dell Wyse D10D is spec'd to consume an average of 9 Watts. Replacing only those 5 devices would cut my power consumption from 335 to 45 Watts. Since the D10D is WIFI capable, all I need to run upstairs is cable to the VOIP and to the AP, cutting out a switch. Instead of using 8 ports on the Meraki switch I could end up using 4, lowering my power consumption a bit further. The unknown for me at this point is what I can expect the DL380 to consume when fully configured and operational. I suspect that it's consumption will far out strip what I save. I'm just looking at ways of utilizing it while minimizing the damage.

Having said all that, yes, I'm interested in learning about thin clients and virtual desktop environments. Learning where they might fit and how to implement them seems worth finding out to me. I wish I was half my age trying to get up to speed on this stuff.

 

[TAPtech]

As a tech I wouldn't want my work rigs virtualized, too much hassle. Maybe P2V one of your systems and RDP into it to trial it out anyways.

 

[Mike McCall]

As a tech I wouldn't want my work rigs virtualized, too much hassle. Maybe P2V one of your systems and RDP into it to trial it out anyways.

Yeah, this may not be the best idea I've ever had, but I'm thinking of my workbench separately as I don't need server capabilities for bench work. So there would be a rig not connected to the network for testing drives and such that I could fire up as needed, but most other things could be done from the server. Remote work could be done either way I suppose, although via the server may not be best approach. I'm not sure of the real-world risk.

My wife says I have a knack for complicating the simplest of things. Maybe I'm doing that again.

 

[Markverhyden]

From what I can find, a typical PC uses between 60 and 300 Watts, with an average (some say) of about 100Watts. I have 2 Mac Mini's and found this about their power consumption:

Mac mini (Late 2009)
2.26GHz or 2.53GHz Core 2 Duo, 4GB 1066 DDR3 SDRAM (2x2GB), 320GB 5400RPM, built in GeForce 9400M, SuperDrive
Power Consumption Thermal Output
Idle Max Idle Max
14 W 110 W 48 BTU/h 376 BTU/h

I also have an Asus VivoPC and found this:

Assuming a mix of idle and use, the mini's might average 50Watts ea. and the VivoPC maybe 35 Watts. Combined with the Dell workstation and wife's PC (assuming 100 Watts ea.) that's about 335 Watts. A Dell Wyse D10D is spec'd to consume an average of 9 Watts. Replacing only those 5 devices would cut my power consumption from 335 to 45 Watts. Since the D10D is WIFI capable, all I need to run upstairs is cable to the VOIP and to the AP, cutting out a switch. Instead of using 8 ports on the Meraki switch I could end up using 4, lowering my power consumption a bit further. The unknown for me at this point is what I can expect the DL380 to consume when fully configured and operational. I suspect that it's consumption will far out strip what I save. I'm just looking at ways of utilizing it while minimizing the damage.

Having said all that, yes, I'm interested in learning about thin clients and virtual desktop environments. Learning where they might fit and how to implement them seems worth finding out to me. I wish I was half my age trying to get up to speed on this stuff.

My point is more along the lines of the total picture. Assuming it's 24/365 the pre-migration picture you mention above is just over 3 100 watt light bulbs 24/365. I've read several stories over the years about the stealth home devices in terms of power consumption. Many devices continue to use power even when they are not in use or off but not unplugged. Stereos, TV's, smart/digital appliances, cable boxes, AC adapters for things like laptops and other devices, WAP's, switches, surge protectors, etc, etc. It all adds up really quick. The big problem is many devices will reset and require an initialization if they are unplugged for too long. I know that has happened with my TV's and Satellite receiver. And if you are self hosting and/or relying on things like VoIP you cannot unplug a lot of things.

 

[Mike McCall]

From my OCD tendencies:

I looked up what I'm paying per kWh and it's about $0.1125. I used 816kWh over a span of 31-days for a total of $91.80. The bill was higher once they got done padding it.

816 / 31 = 26.32kWh per day.
26.32kWh * .1125 = $2.96hr.

Using my above example of cutting the usage from 335W to 45W it looks like this:

26.32kWh / 24hrs = 1.096kWh Total
1.096kWh - 335W = 761W After removing the calculated computer power usage.
761W + 45W = 806W New hourly power usage using Thin Clients (not accounting for server)
806W * 24hrs = 19.34kWh per day.
19.34kWh * .1125 = $2.17hr. A difference of $0.79hr.
19.34kWh * 31-days = 599.54kWh
599.54kWh * .1125 = $67.45mo.

So, unless I'm way off (which I might be) I would be putting $24.35 in my pocket, that is until I light up the server. The server is a bit harder for me to calculate as it's an unknown for me at this point. I'm guessing that the server will ultimately produce a net loss in terms of savings, but the value of thin clients on a larger scale appears to be potentially substantial. If I can save nearly $25mo. on a handful of devices, the potential savings for some businesses could easily be substantial.

 

[Diggs]

My favorite thin client has been the HP t5730. Used them in a variety of situations over the years. I think stock (Semperon 2100) they are ~18 watts. Depending on the need, sometimes we bump them up with a Semperon Mobile 3800+, 2 GB RAM (standard notebook RAM) and a 2.5" IDE HDD/SSD can be tucked inside (unlike most thin clients). I figure in that configuration though it is around 30 watts but is highly dependent on load. They become quite adequate 32-bit "thick-clients".

 

[Mike McCall]

This is looking more like an exercise than anything practical for me. It's not just the cost of the thin clients, but several web sites have mentioned the additional licensing costs for multiple desktop environments running on 2012R2. That seems to be the deal breaker for me. I like the idea, but the costs seem to put the notion way out of reach.