Replace this HDD?

H

Haole Boy

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Aloha,

Working on a customer's Dell XPS 8900. Did the usual ddrescue to image the entire drive. This finished with no errors. Next looked at the drive with gSmartCtl. SMART looks OK (but we all know how deceiving this can be), but the error log looks like this:

ATA Error Count: 9652

Next I ran both the short and long device tests (using gSmartCtl) and both reported no errors.

Toshiba does not appear to have a HDD test tool for their consumer drives.

So, do I recommend to the customer to replace this drive? Everything looks good except the ATA error count. I've never seen this situation before and would appreciate any advice.

See attached file for gSmartCtl output

Mahalo,

Harry Zisko
 

Attachments

If you're referring to:
UDMA_CRC_Error_Count 0x000a 200 200 000 Old_age Always - 9652
Click to expand...

That's errors in transferring data from the drive. It's more a check of whether the SATA cable and connectors are OK.

Errors transferring data will get logged to that attribute.
It doesn't indicate an issue with the drive, more an issue with the cable or the cable isn't seated properly.

Once you have the drive back in and had the computer run for awhile, check that error count again and see if it has increased. If it does, most likely an issue with the cable. If it doesn't it was probably not seated correctly and you already corrected when reinstalling the drive.
 
@Mr.Mike There were NO symptoms of disk failure when working on the customer's machine on-site. The Win10 1709 update was failing and I decided to bring the machine to my place. Every machine that hits my bench has ddrescue run against the hard drive and also gSmartCtl to check SMART and the error log.
 
MichaelBits said:
If you're referring to:


That's errors in transferring data from the drive. It's more a check of whether the SATA cable and connectors are OK.

Errors transferring data will get logged to that attribute.
It doesn't indicate an issue with the drive, more an issue with the cable or the cable isn't seated properly.

Once you have the drive back in and had the computer run for awhile, check that error count again and see if it has increased. If it does, most likely an issue with the cable. If it doesn't it was probably not seated correctly and you already corrected when reinstalling the drive.
Click to expand...

Great info! I'll check it out and report back.

Mahalo!
 
ATA errors could be anywhere along the bus including the controller on the motherboard. Replacing the cable is a reasonable place to start, clean the connectors etc.

You won't necessarily notice any symptoms of ATA errors because it is apparently recovering.

I guess if the errors are increasing rapidly you could put a test disk in and see if the errors continue to rise. If that is the case then you have a dicky motherboard.
 
The last error was at 942 hours, which is 8531 hours ago. That's a long time with no errors. If I had any doubts I'd run a non-destructive read/write test with badblocks. But I'd put that drive back in without a second thought.
 
Diggs said:
These days if I even have to ask the question about the stability of a HDD I just replace it with a SSD.
Click to expand...

I wish I could do this, but my customer set is residential and that much expense would be met with a very firm NO. :-)

backwoodsman said:
The last error was at 942 hours, which is 8531 hours ago. That's a long time with no errors. If I had any doubts I'd run a non-destructive read/write test with badblocks. But I'd put that drive back in without a second thought.
Click to expand...

Well, I've already run ddrescue and both the built-in-to-the-drive short and long drive tests (via gSmartCtl). All finished with no errors. What test are you thinking of? The usual procedure I've seen recommended here on TechNibble is to download the drive manufacturer's diagnostic tool and run that, but Toshiba does not appear to provide such a tool. If you can provide some info on an additional tool I always love to learn about new diagnostic tools.

Also, I ran the Malwarebytes Toolset diagnostic tool, and it reported the errors as occurring 11 months ago. As you pointed out, that's a long time ago. Now that I know what the errors are (thanks to previous responders in this thread) I'm feeling comfortable with leaving the drive alone and giving the machine back to the customer.

Mahalo to all who replied!

Harry Z
 
Haole Boy said:
I wish I could do this, but my customer set is residential and that much expense would be met with a very firm NO.
Click to expand...

An analogy might be helpful.

There's a hole in your boat. It's below the waterline where it's not obvious, but you can see it using this special tool.

I can fix this properly for $XXX or put a bit of tape over it for $X. The proper repair will be good for at least five years but the tape could come off at any moment, without warning and with undesirable consequences.

How would you like to proceed?
 
Computer Bloke said:
An analogy might be helpful.

There's a hole in your boat. It's below the waterline where it's not obvious, but you can see it using this special tool.

I can fix this properly for $XXX or put a bit of tape over it for $X. The proper repair will be good for at least five years but the tape could come off at any moment, without warning and with undesirable consequences.

How would you like to proceed?
Click to expand...

If I feel the drive is defective, then I will definitely recommend that the drive be replaced, and almost all of the time my customer will agree to it. I give them the choice between a HDD and an SSD, and only 1 customer has gone for the SSD due to the additional cost.

Harry Z
 
Haole Boy said:
What test are you thinking of?
Click to expand...
Again, I'd put that drive right back in; nothing there makes me think there might be a problem. But when a surface scan is in order, badblocks does a good job. It's on most any Linux disk.

My usual command line would be:

badblocks -svn -b 512 -c 512 /dev/sd[x]

The n is non-destructive read/write mode. Omit it for read-only test, or change it to w for destructive multiple-pattern write test. Read the man page (man badblocks) for the other options.
 
Haole Boy said:
I give them the choice between a HDD and an SSD
Click to expand...

If you give them a choice between an HDD, an SSD or a new computer I bet most of them will pick the SSD.

When people are buying something unfamiliar the most common response is to choose the second most expensive option, reasoning that it's probably in the "sweet spot" between needless luxury and false economy. Watch yourself the next time you're looking to purchase something you're not an expert on - you might be surprised.

And any time you want to waste an afternoon, just Google "good, better, best pricing". It could change your life, and it will certainly change your business.
 
Last edited:
Haole Boy said:
If I feel the drive is defective, then I will definitely recommend that the drive be replaced, and almost all of the time my customer will agree to it. I give them the choice between a HDD and an SSD, and only 1 customer has gone for the SSD due to the additional cost.

Harry Z
Click to expand...

I usually tell my customers that an SSD drive will cost $$ and a Regular Drive will cost $. I would suggest putting in the SSD Drive and if they do not agree it is worth the price difference, I'll swap it out with a regular drive and refund the difference. I have NEVER had someone ask to replace the SSD. NEVER! This assumes a "normal" amount of data and your mileage may vary. 240GB SSD in about 90% is sufficient.
 
Computer Bloke said:
An analogy might be helpful.

There's a hole in your boat. It's below the waterline where it's not obvious, but you can see it using this special tool.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that's a good analogy in this case. As @backwoodsman points out, the 'fault' is historical, so more like:

Last year's running log shows that your boat had a spell of engine misfires and rough running. This was traced to contaminated fuel, so the fuel tank and lines were cleaned, the tank refilled and the problem has never reappeared. Do you still want to change the engine?
 
Haole Boy said:
I wish I could do this, but my customer set is residential and that much expense would be met with a very firm NO. :)
Click to expand...

My customer base is also residential and I no longer offer HDD as a choice except in rare (1-2 TB) cases. As we discussed in another thread, with name brand SSDs being so cheap ($50) there isn't really a reason for using HDDs unless it is a capacity issue.

Hmmm..... So someone working with a failed HDD replaces it with a HDD that will also fail probably sooner than later especially if it is in a laptop. Does the customer curse Seagate/Hitachi/WD or you? Obviously they curse at you 'cause it was you that last touched their computer. I've never had an SSD fail and I get tons of praise (not curses) when they get their "old" computer back and it is the fastest computer they have ever used (since I put the SSD in).

It took me awhile to get this point. (Too many failed HDDs.) I see my old self in some of these posts saying it is too expensive and the customer wants the cheapest. (Why would you even offer a HDD being the tech you are and knowing the performance and life expectancy of an SSD is so incredibly superior for only $50.) I don't give that HDD choice anymore.
 
Computer Bloke said:
If you give them a choice between an HDD, an SSD or a new computer I bet most of them will pick the SSD.

When people are buying something unfamiliar the most common response is to choose the second most expensive option, reasoning that it's probably in the "sweet spot" between needless luxury and false economy. Watch yourself the next time you're looking to purchase something you're not an expert on - you might be surprised.

And any time you want to waste an afternoon, just Google "good, better, best pricing". It could change your life, and it will certainly change your business.
Click to expand...

Interesting... never thought of it this way. However, most of my customers are over 60, running Windows 7, resistant to change, and not a lot of extra money to spend . So if there is an option to keep the familiar system (Win 7) vs. going to Windows 10 they would rather keep the system they have. So then they pick the cheaper option.

HFultzjr said:
I usually tell my customers that an SSD drive will cost $$ and a Regular Drive will cost $. I would suggest putting in the SSD Drive and if they do not agree it is worth the price difference, I'll swap it out with a regular drive and refund the difference. I have NEVER had someone ask to replace the SSD. NEVER! This assumes a "normal" amount of data and your mileage may vary. 240GB SSD in about 90% is sufficient.
Click to expand...

Ashamed to admit this, but really never thought of installing a smaller SSD than the original HD. (self-flagellation begins and will continue for a while....). Also like your idea of a refund if they're not satisfied.

What do you do with a Win 7 system where you've replaced the HD with a smaller SSD, and the SSD fails for some reason. How do you get Win 7 reinstalled? If you get the Dell installation media, it will only work with the size of drives originally available on that system when it shipped from the factory.

Also, what software do you use to shrink the Win 7 system so it will fit on a smaller drive? Do you use what comes with the SSD, or other software that you like better?

Diggs said:
My customer base is also residential and I no longer offer HDD as a choice except in rare (1-2 TB) cases. As we discussed in another thread, with name brand SSDs being so cheap ($50) there isn't really a reason for using HDDs unless it is a capacity issue.

Hmmm..... So someone working with a failed HDD replaces it with a HDD that will also fail probably sooner than later especially if it is in a laptop. Does the customer curse Seagate/Hitachi/WD or you? Obviously they curse at you 'cause it was you that last touched their computer. I've never had an SSD fail and I get tons of praise (not curses) when they get their "old" computer back and it is the fastest computer they have ever used (since I put the SSD in).

It took me awhile to get this point. (Too many failed HDDs.) I see my old self in some of these posts saying it is too expensive and the customer wants the cheapest. (Why would you even offer a HDD being the tech you are and knowing the performance and life expectancy of an SSD is so incredibly superior for only $50.) I don't give that HDD choice anymore.
Click to expand...

OK, I have to find that other thread as I was not aware of $50 SSD's that were of good quality.

Mahalo to everyone who has replied. Much appreciated!

Harry Z
 
Haole Boy said:
What do you do with a Win 7 system where you've replaced the HD with a smaller SSD, and the SSD fails for some reason. How do you get Win 7 reinstalled? If you get the Dell installation media, it will only work with the size of drives originally available on that system when it shipped from the factory.
Click to expand...
Harry, Reading the above confuses me. I am having trouble putting in to words what I am thinking.
 
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