What would you charge this customer after all this work!

[tankman1989]

2/2/2011
8:45PM 9:20pm 35mins Booted laptop - When prompted as to what state, I chose "Normal"System shutdown by itself. Rebooted into safemode - system hangs and SD's. Hangs at ~\drivers\volsnap.sys and reboots


2/4/2011
14:20 14:35 15 Removed HD from Case - Check other bay *note - Harddrive had previously been removed as screw are missing to secure it under the outside late.
19:10 21:27 135 Started a Drive Image XML backup for data
19:25 19:45 20 Booted into Helix3 without any issue
21:30 21:55 25 Started ClamAV indepth scan No viruses found
21:55 0:10 135 Started Bitdefender 2011 Deep AV scan 6 malicious files found and cleaned/deleted
0:15 0:25 10 Checked backup image to verify integrity - Everything seems fine
1:20 2:30 70 Investigated rattling sound in chassis Found an extra screw in chassis - most likely came from HD as the HD was missing the screws
3:50 4:30 40 Put screws back in chassis Laptop would not boot after this - blank screen. It seemed as though the HD wasn't even spinning up when the
4:30 4:50 20 Troubleshooting no video problem Power was on. I removed the HD and tested it on my bench machine and it seems fine. I tried to boot to Helix again
and got a blank screen but it sounded like it was working in the background. I rebooted and this time I hit Tab and found

4:50 5:00 10 Started running Chkdsk H: on Bench machine Finished and stored file image
5:00 5:39 40 Replaced HD in Laptop Booted many times and finally got "last known good configuration" to work, I logged in with the password & about 30-60 sec
later the laptop powers off. Saw backdrop of kid wearing red coat! So I can log in!

5:45 6:12 27 Logged into machine 3-4 timea Kept shutting down because of updates
7:40 7:55 15 Booted into Windows Normally installed 3/3 updated and then I could log in.
7:55 8:30 35 Downloaded 99+ important security updates Downloading and installing them

Found Symantec Antivirus & Anti-spyware - no updates in over a year Don't know if Symantec will work without paying so I opted for Avira. I also installed and updated MBAM and Spybot
8:00 8:20 20 Installed MBAM, Spybot and Avira anti virus Personal
THE CPU FAN MIGHT BE RUNNING HOW CAUSING SHUTDOWNS!
8:20 8:55 35 installing updates abd rebooting
8:55 10:20 85 installing 84 updates

The total so far the total minutes spent are 772 and I think there is some more that can be done. This is for an old acquaintance (that is putting it politely, we've never fought is a better way to describe the relationship).

This machine has been a real bugger! I think it is cleaned up but I can never be sure if all the nasties are gone. Can anyone suggest how to do that?

When the client dropped it off I told him a $35 bench test to get an idea of what was wrong. I couldn't boot into anything so I figured there was corruption of some drivers, dll's, or malware. The above is the list of all the things that I had to do to get this machine back up and running. A total of 772 minutes and I am not even done yet! There are a lot more updates to download.

My issue is should I have just gone with a system restore and then restore the backup? I wanted to find out what was making this machine do this and a system restore wouldn't I've me as much "feeling" as to how the machine is performing.

My local competition charges $20/hr! I can't go that low I don't think and I am thinking of charging him $35/hr and when I do charge more I will offer a $50-$100 rebate on his next hardware upgrade, system backup, etc.

I know I am going to get some $hit for not discussing a price at drop off point. I told him a $35 1/2 hour bench test and he did not ask how much it was going to cost, he just wanted it done!

What would you do?

 

[MobileTechie]

I don't understand. How is that 772 hours?

I also don't get the times you've stated. For instance "8:45PM 9:20pm 35mins Booted laptop - When prompted as to what state, I chose "Normal"System shutdown by itself. Rebooted into safemode". How can you claim 35 minutes work for merely turning it on a couple of times?

How does it take 15 mins to remove a drive unless this is a mac or other machine with no bay? How can you claim 135 mins for starting up Drive Image XML? During the same time period you are also booting into Helix yet claiming 20 additional minutes? You later claim another 135 mins for allowing Bit Defender to do it's own work.

I don't know exactly on what basis you charge but a lot of that I wouldn't be charging for at all or if I was only for a few minutes of actual work.

Most of what you have done appears to be run some virus scans which may or may not have been relevant to the specific problem and replace a hard drive. I would have thought this was an hour or so's work tops.

Maybe you've not supplied all the information pertaining to it but I would have thought the first task would be to try last known config, then test the HDD - if not broken then check/correct the file system. If none of these then an offline system restore and then look for other reasons such as viruses.

All that aside, the price is what you agreed with him and if you didn't then a fair hourly rate for the time actually spent active on the problem.

 

[cmonova]

Well I read your post over and over and the only thing that sticks out to me is this

"When the client dropped it off I told him a $35 bench test to get an idea of what was wrong."

If you have not talked to him since and have put hours of work into it then I think you are going to suck up a big loss on this one. A bench diag is one thing but putting in hours upon hours and then wondering about a price is not the way to go about it.

I would of done the normal bench test and then called the customer and said something to him like "hey your pc is jacked up, and this would actually run you about $$ in order for me to get it operating properly.

 

[ljtechservices]

Most of the time I can't devote full attention to something on the bench. I'll start a scan go do something else then get back to it for the next stage of the repair.
I may bill 3 hours for something i've "Worked on for 8hrs" because most of that 8 hours were spent doing something else productive while waiting for something to happen on the broken machine.

There comes a point in troubleshooting when you need to determine whats going to be best for the customer monetarily and practically, stop what you are doing, call them and explain the situation and let them decide.

After that initial diag period, what was your feeling about what was wrong?
It was then you should have contacted the owner and said 'this is whats wrong, this is what I'm going to do, this is what the cost will be. if anything changes I'll let you know. Do you have a spending limit?'

My issue is should I have just gone with a system restore and then restore the backup? I wanted to find out what was making this machine do this and a system restore wouldn't I've me as much "feeling" as to how the machine is performing.

basically you admit that it became personal and you were going to fix it no matter what, learning in the process. I think every tech does it from time to time but 772 hrs approaches Captain Ahab like obsession.

 

[ljtechservices]

I don't understand. How is that 772 hours?

yeah i thought that at 1st. then he corrected later to minutes. still 12hrs?

on-site I have to charge for the time waiting for a scan to run because i'm captive till the job is complete or I can convince the EU that the machine needs to be taken back to the bench. I will normally use that time to check out other machines the customer has or talk about other IT needs.

on the bench it's different. I start a scan then to do something else. I start windows update to run then go have lunch.
I don't stare at the screen while scans and updates are happening on the bench and call it work.

 

[rainmaker2112]

At first read I thought he said 772 hours, but if you re-read it it's actually 772 MINUTES (aka a little over 13 hours).

An error made that is not uncommon is to try to do an initial diagnostic that tells the customer the exact problem. In a case like this where the system won't start, bad DLLs, etc I think you need to go back to the customer and state "your system is severely broken and there are a few options:

1. Backup your data & do a OS reinstall - this will cost about $_______

2. I continue to try to fix your system, which could cost you $_______

I would recommend Option _________________."


Your diagnostic fee covers how extensive the computer issues are. It will take further work to fix the system, which is then the fee you charge.

As stated by others you made the mistake of digging into the "Fixing stage" before you updated the client & set their expectations. I did this earllier in my career, since I thought I had to have the solution as part of the diagnostic fee stage.

As an example, consider when you go to a doctor or lawyer. You pay a "consult" or "visit" fee during which they do testing & try to figure out what is ailing you. Sometimes they can on the first visit (aka diagnostic fee) while most other times it requires further research & testing for which you will pay additional fees.

 

[callthatgirl]

Ok, remember...is this case, you should only be charging for the time you touch or do analysis on the system. Looks like to me that you put in every minute things ran or scanned, etc.

Is that right?

 

[tankman1989]

I have to be in front of this thing almost every minute because it does something screwy like shutting off or freezing up. If I plan a full system virus scan (figure 1-2 hours) I can't just walk away. I have to stay here b/c I need to see when the system shuts off for no reason or when it locks up.

The problems this thing is exhibiting are very sporadic as I booted the machine normally at 2pm today and took a nap and when I got up it was still on the windows progress bar. I powered off and started back up again and it was fine. What could be the difference between those two boots? Could this be hardware issue?

This guy bought this machine at a pawn shop so heaven only knows what it has been through. It is a decent machine (if you like Toshiba's).

Finally, this laptop is sort of a test to see how much time is needed to get a machine back to 100 % w/o N&P and so far it is taking A LOT more time! I'm not passing all the cost along to the customer, it will be a severely discounted rate.

When we talked about the price of the bench test and everything else he said that he just needed it to work, just get it to work. So, what would you take from that?

 

[DCGPX]

I have to be in front of this thing almost every minute because it does something screwy like shutting off or freezing up. If I plan a full system virus scan (figure 1-2 hours) I can't just walk away. I have to stay here b/c I need to see when the system shuts off for no reason or when it locks up.

The problems this thing is exhibiting are very sporadic as I booted the machine normally at 2pm today and took a nap and when I got up it was still on the windows progress bar. I powered off and started back up again and it was fine. What could be the difference between those two boots? Could this be hardware issue?

This guy bought this machine at a pawn shop so heaven only knows what it has been through. It is a decent machine (if you like Toshiba's).

Finally, this laptop is sort of a test to see how much time is needed to get a machine back to 100 % w/o N&P and so far it is taking A LOT more time! I'm not passing all the cost along to the customer, it will be a severely discounted rate.

When we talked about the price of the bench test and everything else he said that he just needed it to work, just get it to work. So, what would you take from that?

Now it's clearer!

1 . Take image of drive.
2. N&P
3. Take image of new install.
4. Put original image back on.
5. Play away and try fix to your hearts content
6. When client wants back put image from 2 on and give back
7. Learn from from 4&5
8. Report back!!

Good luck

 

[tankman1989]

I don't understand. How is that 772 hours?

I also don't get the times you've stated. For instance "8:45PM 9:20pm 35mins Booted laptop - When prompted as to what state, I chose "Normal"System shutdown by itself. Rebooted into safemode". How can you claim 35 minutes work for merely turning it on a couple of times?

How does it take 15 mins to remove a drive(glued cover) unless this is a mac or other machine with no bay? How can you claim 135 mins for starting up Drive Image XML? During the same time period you are also booting into Helix yet claiming 20 additional minutes? You later claim another 135 mins for allowing Bit Defender to do it's own work.

Yes, I was doing DIXML on my bench machine while I was testing Helix on the laptop trying different configs to see if there were any hardware issues. the 135 for BD is how my competition charges so that is what I do. I had to lower prices to compete but change pricing structure to allow for profit. It's difficult when your competition charges $20/hr, has a store and an employee and the tech is never there!

I don't know exactly on what basis you charge but a lot of that I wouldn't be charging for at all or if I was only for a few minutes of actual work.

Most of what you have done appears to be run some virus scans which may or may not have been relevant to the specific problem and replace a hard drive. I would have thought this was an hour or so's work tops.

Maybe you've not supplied all the information pertaining to it but I would have thought the first task would be to try last known config, then test the HDD - if not broken then check/correct the file system. If none of these then an offline system restore and then look for other reasons such as viruses.
I tried all the various windows booting options and all gave a black screen. booting to safemode would stop at volsnap.sys each time and the go black. It was then that I decided to backup the HD and hen run a virus scan on it afterwards (found 6)
All that aside, the price is what you agreed with him and if you didn't then a fair hourly rate for the time actually spent active on the problem.

I'm not charging for the time I wasn't at the computer...

 

[tankman1989]

I think the reason I have so many hours listed is because I never know when this thing is going to power off for no reason. I have to watch it constantly. The first 3 hours it probably powered off 40+ times by itself.

This thing is a Toshiba and they are known for running hot and it has an AMD Turion X2 Dual Core which is acting like a little blast furnace. I dread opening this up to find a hairball on the fan.

Could the heat be causing the shutdowns?

BTW I talked to the client and he has no problem paying for some of the time and also paying for a fresh install.

 

[JosephLeo]

Well, from I deciphered I can see the following as billable tasks, the rest either fall under continued diagnostics, or I wouldn't charge at all for.

1. Booted Laptop - Diagnostic ($29, free w/ billed service)
2. Drive Image XML - Data Backup ($49, $30 w/ tuneup)
3. ClamAV/Bitdefender - Virus Removal ($119)
4. Rattling Sounds - Minor Hardware Repair ($50)
5. Updates - Premium Tuneup ($50)
6. Install MBAM - Software Install ($10, free w/ Tuneup)

So...$249 and probably could have been bartered down to $200.

 

[Fubs]

I would do as DCGPX said and clone the drive and redo the operating system. If the computer flakes during the install then you know it's a hardware problem. If it runs fine then you know it's software problem. If it is a software problem and it has already taken you this many hours with no results then you have made the mistake of not knowing when to quit. Unless the guy is paying you for all the time you're spending to find out exactly what is wrong, in our shop if things take too long (eg. a virus cleaning that just isn't getting removed) then we sugest to the customer to either format & redo the system or if it is a hardware problem, we let them know what is wrong and quote them the costs.

As for how to charge, I think you should charge just the diag. fee and eat the rest of the time you spent. Consider it a relatively inexpensive lesson on running your own business. Imagine if this was an employee and he/she spent 13 non-billable hours to diagnose a custome'rs machine. I would be ******. Also, know that some jobs are easier than others and to use those easy jobs to make up for the hard ones. If say one computer takes only 1 hour to virus clean vs another that is heavily infected and takes 5 hours, I still charge the same.

 

[Bill]

What is N&P and what software are you using for imaging?

 

[JosephLeo]

What is N&P and what software are you using for imaging?

N&P means "Nuke and Pave" which is basically a term we use here to describe "Reformatting the drive, and reinstalling windows"

Another term you may bump into here on TechNibble is "pizza tech" which is basically a person who claims to be a computer technician, but is no where near qualified to do work on a computer and is doing pc repairs for "pizza money". Typically it's mostly the craigslisters that we're concerned about with this term.

As for imaging, I use DriveImageXML.

 

[MobileTechie]

I think the reason I have so many hours listed is because I never know when this thing is going to power off for no reason. I have to watch it constantly. The first 3 hours it probably powered off 40+ times by itself.

This thing is a Toshiba and they are known for running hot and it has an AMD Turion X2 Dual Core which is acting like a little blast furnace. I dread opening this up to find a hairball on the fan.

Could the heat be causing the shutdowns?

BTW I talked to the client and he has no problem paying for some of the time and also paying for a fresh install.

If it's turning itself off whilst running on a boot disk then it has h/w problems which will need addressing first.

 

[Xander]

When the client dropped it off I told him a $35 bench test to get an idea of what was wrong. ... A total of 772 minutes and I am not even done yet!

To address the original question, I think you've answered it.

If all you quoted was a diagnostic but chose to volunteer more work (we've all done it), then the charge is what was first quoted until the customer gets consulted again.

 

[atlanticjim]

2/2/2011


5:45 6:12 27 Logged into machine 3-4 timea Kept shutting down because of updates
.
7:55 8:30 35 Downloaded 99+ important security updates Downloading and installing them


8:20 8:55 35 installing updates abd rebooting
8:55 10:20 85 installing 84 updates

1. I agree that you have done a lot of volunteer work on this one. In the past I have done that only to have the client say "$200 to repair that old laptop? nah, I don't want to spend that much, just give it back and I will pay you the bench fee". In order to feel better about it you can tell yourself that you just spent about 600 minutes in the classroom. IMHO you cannot charge the client for time waiting for the computer to do something while you are in the shop. Of course onsite they pay for all my time.

2. Please dont tell me that you are updating OS via the Windows Update web interface. Learn how to use WSUSoffline updater. I keep an XP and Vista update dvd-rw with me and refresh them about monthly. Last night I had just restored a laptop from a dell xp sp1 restore partition. After that I just popped in the disk and went to bed. It updated including the necessary shutdowns and restarts and this AM just needed last weeks one security update.