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You Want Me To Pay How much!?
“You want me to pay how much!?”. It is a sentence that Computer Technicians dread. It often starts with a phone call where the client tells you about their problem, you say you know how to fix this particular problem, a time is arranged and the computer is fixed. The technician then tells the client that it will be $200 for the repairs and then the client explodes.
It is the sound of mismanaged expectations and either side can be at fault. Sometimes the Technician didn’t make the client aware of the costs upfront, and sometimes the Technician did everything right and the client is still unreasonable.
While we cant control unreasonable clients, there are some things we can do to minimize the chances of this event happening.
Keep Them Up To Date
When working on a computer, sometimes the price of the job can escalate. I personally try to avoid it where ever possible by doing diagnostics before I mention the final cost. However, sometimes you can find additional problems while you are working on the PC. If this happens, constantly keep them up to date with increasing costs so they dont get a nasty surprise when you are finished.
Actually, this happened to me just recently where a computer was brought in with all sorts of software issues. In the end, I discovered that the computer was infected with a rootkit but there was also heaps of operating system damage from past infections. While I prefer not to do a nuke and pave since it seems like a cop-out way to remove a virus, the operating system just had too much damage to be reliable and a format will be the most cost effective way with the best result for my client.
I quoted my client my usual flat fee for reinstalls, got the go ahead and started backing up their data with my imaging software.
However, the imaging software kept getting CRC errors so I checked the SMART data of the hard drive with CrystalDiskInfo and it produced many warnings saying the hard drives days are numbered. I then checked the hard drive with the manufacturers official testing tool (using UBCD), that also said it was failing.
So I called the client again, told them how my backup software was failing and that they will need a new hard drive. I explained to them the dangers of continuing to using this drive which they understood and told me to go ahead with it. I always hate increasing the price after I have already quoted since it makes me feel like a dodgy mechanic saying you need your power steering and electrics done when you only brought it in for a wheel alignment. However, the computer showed no signs of hard drive problems during my diagnostics.
Anyway, the point is while you should try not to quote before you know exactly what is wrong, you do get caught out and when it happens you need to keep them updated of any rising costs so they dont get any nasty surprises at the end.
Tell Them A Minimum Price Before You Go Onsite
Its surprising how many clients dont actually ask your prices before they ask you to book them in for a visit. It is a good idea to tell your clients your prices before you go onsite. If you have a minimum charge (often called the “call out fee”), it is especially important to let them know that they will need to pay that fee, regardless of whether they choose to fix it or not. This should weed out most of the nasty surprises. Of course, this is not fool-proof.
Just recently a poor technician on our forums told us the story of how some kid called up, asked how much it would cost to repair a certain computer part, the technician quoted him $XXX and the kid agreed to it. When the technician went onsite and the father asked how much it was, the technician told him and the father just exploded.
I guess the lesson here is tell them the price before you go onsite, but make sure you tell it to the person who will be paying the bill in the end as well.
Red Flags
There are a few key phrases you can look out for that will help you spot someone who will debate your prices. One of them is:
“This should only take a few minutes” or “This should be easy”
Sometimes these clients will even name their own prices: “I have a cracked LCD screen but we don’t have much money, so I only want to pay $25”. These phrases are warning signs and you need to tell them a minimum of how much time it will take and a minimum price. If they don’t like it, they will go elsewhere and you are probably better off not having them in the first place.
In conclusion, you should manage clients expectations by always keeping them informed of any price rise, tell them your minimum prices before you go onsite (tell the right person too) and watch out for any red flags.
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Good point Bryce, I would say this has happened to me earlier this month, but I must admit it was my fault for not keeping the lines of communication open with the client.
Thanks for bringing this up.
Very good articles from technibble. This tech community is awsome.
Thanks for the support.
I do door hangers and they work well for me and I always put my prices on my hangers and website so when a client calls they know up front what I charge so there is no misunderstanding on price plus I charge flat rate so how can you argue with that so the idea is always put pricing on advertising I put mine in big bold letters so they can see plus i get my hangers custom designed not predesigned.
I elimate the hard drive suprise by testing all hard drives before hand. Slow computer is also a symptom of a failing hard drive.
As far as onsite work, call out fee minimum is a requirement & if the person calling sounds like a kid ask if hes going to be paying or if the appointments being placed on behalf of another then you’ll need to talk to the person paying before the appointment can be scheduled.
I run into this with business calling me out then the office manager claiming they didnt authorize the service call or my rate. for larger corporations I require a purchase order a lot of the time
I provide a work order for EVERY job, no matter how big or small, I also explain that there could be other charges and why, that way the customer knows how much it will cost and they aren’t surprised when the final bill comes in. I haven’t had a problem yet.
Definitely had this happen to me. Sometimes it’s hard to keep lines of communication open every step of the way or even for-see how much a particular repair is going to cost. I’m all about negotiating but $25 for an lcd repair is just not going to cut it.
Well computer techicians dont just put emphasis on the tehnical part but have to learn how to deal with people..great stuff
Usually i find if you just stay in touch with the customer as you are working on their pc and explain things it’s ok.
You might want to wait for the customer to drop by again and then you could do a hard drive test etc, and show them there are more problems etc.
as to the ones who only want to pay a little they are a problem. I like helping customers out sometimes I realize these are hare times.
but what happens when they come back again and keep expecting you to give them a low price?
I’m always amazed at customers that want a free house call for an estimate on tv. etc.
Doesn’t every plumber charge at least $50 to come out? we are profressional people too and so we should get paid just like any other repair person.
I had an experience recently where stupid me forgot to mention the service costs when talking to a client and only mentioned the costs of the parts. When I gave them the bill they freaked. In the end we worked out a payment plan as the amount was right outside of their planned budget. So everything worked out. One thing that may have helped was that they were a longtime client. I highly doubt it would have gone as smooth as it did with a new one.
What an informative and insightful article!Good communication,some level of certainty and documentation are important in this business.
I like to run as many tests as possible before I quote out a price. With inhouse repairs I’ve found its much easier since you have time to run tests. Its the onsite calls that always cause problems because the clients are usually pretty stressed out to start with. I try to avoid onsites for brand new customers.
Dear Bryce, thanks to post this nice topic for those who started their career in technician field as a independent technician or starting a new business. Valuable suggestion and everybody must remember that most important thing is don’t over or under smart and/or over or under confidence every time, even you expert in this field. Always maintain balancing position.
Pricing has become a real issue during the recession, even wealthy clients are now playing hardball.
Another red flag that is all too frequent is clients asking if you can do the job within an hour. I usually give them an approx time for that piece of work and then add this would exclude breakdowns, infections and reloads. This will often irritate clients but I’d rather deal with on the phone than 2hours later on-site.
Good points Bryce! It’s always a good idea to start with checking HD integrity, Ubuntu also has a pretty good built-in SMART checker, On a USB key I can get into Linux and that utility in around 45 seconds, and if its failing, Linux is a great way to transfer files as well (excluding the .exe files and scanning the backup with the AV and MBAM).
Good post Bryce!
I love the “but I watched and that looked easy enough to me… I coulda done that” ones.
Great tips. I think it is a great idea to let them know a minimum and an estimate. Also, I really agree that if the price is going to increase, then the customer needs to be notified before any work. This definately stops a lot of potential problems.
“While I prefer not to do a nuke and pave since it seems like a cop-out way to remove a virus”
Getting your ego in the way of providing the customer the best solution leads down a bad road, IMHO. Backup and reload is:
1 – The ONLY way to ensure the virus is gone.
2 – The best bang for the buck for the customer.
3 – The best way to return the computer back to its original fast and clean state.
4 – The best way to ensure you won’t get the computer back in two weeks with more problems.
Not nearly as geeky as chasing malware but with my ego out of the way it is the best solution in nearly all virus cases. We’re not here to prove how much we know. We’re here to provide the best service solution to the customer. There’s no such thing as a cop out. There is only the best and most efficient answer for the best value.
The one exception is when the customer does not have the software added after the PC was received. At that I have the customer sign a statement which essentially says we don’t warranty virus removal but will apply half credit for hourly work when he comes back to reload it in a couple of weeks.
“Getting your ego in the way of providing the customer the best solution leads down a bad road”
Yep, thats why I went down that path for something with that much damage.
If it was a simple virus, its more cost effective to remove it manually rather than format.
I always try to do what is most cost effective for the customer.
@ Bill, I agree with Bryce, it is really dependent on the cost effectiveness to the customer, backing up and reloading at times has too many inconveniences, notably you have to cover all your bases: Files, bookmarks (Firefox is a pain), getting a list of their applications, any application settings, drivers if you are using your own disks (but their COA).
I’ve made the mistake of giving a cost estimate that falls under what it ends up costing, and in many cases having to eat the difference because the customer doesn’t want to pay more than what they expected to pay. I’ve learned that it’s better to overestimate and in the end give the customer a reduced bill, rather than the other way around.
“I find running the usual Malwarebytes or superantispywere, then chasing remnants and rootkits and guessing what is actually there takes more than two hours with no assurance of success.”- Bill
I think that removing malware from within an infected system is as ineffective as the result is dubious.The OS of an infected system is unreliable and compromised.
I’m in agreement that if I could reliably remove malware so that it was truly gone and the OS was not corrupted AND I could do it for less I’d do it every time.
The problem we see is that we are not as good as many of the malware application writers and it becomes a matter of time/money to get the best solution to the customer.
I find running the usual Malwarebytes or superantispywere, then chasing remnants and rootkits and guessing what is actually there takes more than two hours with no assurance of success.
We do a reload for about the same as 2.5 hours of tech time and that absolutely positively takes care of the problem and returns the PC to its optimal state.
There’s no way I can say this without sounding snarky so you’ll just have to believe that I don’t mean it that way but you guys are better than we are if you can accomplish the same thing a reload does for less money and time. A lot better. In five years we’ve had half a dozen techs, pretty good ones, who have said they could do that and two weeks later the customer comes back pissed off that the virus has returned. And we end up reloading anyway.
We’ve spent a lot of time talking about this and keep coming to the same conclusion. The front end pain of reload is worth it for the customer almost every time.
OK, I’m done.
@ Bill, good points and you do make a compelling argument for the reformat process when the machine is slowing down and the hard drive checks out- in that instance there’s hardly a reason not to reformat short of the customer being unwilling to.
The bottlenecks in the virus removal process seems to be in the Malwarebytes and AV scans, however excluding these scans, the virus removal process can be done in less than 2.5 hours and provided the computer is reasonably powerful enough (at least a Core2Duo with 2 GB RAM).
When you said you had a customer come back pissed off the the virus returned, it could have been anything from a less than thorough work to an un-updated OS, Java, Adobe, Flash, etc. I always make sure the AV is a reliable one or I ask the customer if they want to switch to a better one, this usually becomes a better front-line defence than what they had before.
Honestly in my opinion if the latter is true it’s less your tech’s fault than it is in the inherent nature of the Windows OS. It’s fine that we need Windows Updates, it’s not fine we need to resort to 3rd party updaters (Ninite, Filehippo, Flash DLM, Java Updater) to update other potential sources of exploits- OSX consolidates both OS updates and other program updates in Apple Updates.
Here’s my process and how do it in under 2.5 hours:
Run rkill (2), ccleaner (5), autoruns(5), combofix(20)(still only 32-bit compatible), killbox(5)(to remove files shown in the combofix log to have been created in the last 30 days), reboot, autoruns(5), process explorer verification(5), program updates(5)through Ninite. (Up to this point I’d say less than an hour has passed).
Windows Update (we won’t count this in the time because its required after a reformat as well unless you have a slipstreamed version of the OS). Install MBAM and run it (another half-hour minimum, time could increase).
I also have to go along with Bill Schubert above.
All the reasons he mentioned are valid to me at this point.Plus some of my own.
I recently encountered a major messed up desktop, that was referred to me by a friend. That was my first mistake.
The guys kids had downloaded so many torrent games and other stuff that it was a disaster. More Trojans than a cheap motel.
It was the whole family’s computer and there were 4 users with all different stuff. Stuff they couldn’t replace for one reason or another and not all of it could be rescued if I reinstalled. They wanted me to save it as it was.
It was loaded with xp media center edition which I did not have a copy of and of course their restore disk was missing.
Well long story sorry. Cut to the chase. I worked my ass off and miraculously cleaned it up and got it working without losing their data.
I told them that the Trojans and other nasties had done a real job on it and unless they changed their online behavior it would happen again.
I charged them a fair price (far less than I should have) and they seemed happy with it. All good right……….. Of course not.
Less than 2 weeks later I get a call. “YOU MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING WRONG. IT’S DOING THE SAME THING AGAIN”
Well, of course it was messed up because they kept doing what they weren’t supposed too.
I told them I would look at it again. WHen I told them they denied the bad behavior and said there kids would not download anything. Of course I had the history in front of me and indeed they did.
They said I should fix it at no charge and instead of getting angry with them, I told them it would take a full install. I managed to find the same OS they had . Installed it and gave it back to them at no charge. I told them I was done with this computer and it was like new now. Don’t call me if anything else goes wrong. End of story.
I am sorry I went on and on with this but several caveats should be recognized here. Don’t take referrals from friends. They mean well but you can be sure they told the person “my friend fixes computers and he will give you a good deal.” You know that’s what they do.
IF you diagnose the problem and find the owner or users are doing behavior that caused this, then talk to them before you fix it. If they balk and say.”OH,NO we wouldn’t do that. Cut your losses. Jump ship , or any cliche you want to add here. It’s a no win.
Last, Bill’s reasons are even more important to implement because computers are so inexpensive today.
Wal-mart and others offer a full sized desktop with monitor for like $298. A decent laptop under $400.
Who wants to sink Even $100 into something like that.
Maybe not even $50.
To even work on those inexpensive computers is almost running at a loss. Even at just a restore installation, you take the risk of something else going wrong and find your self in the dilemma of what do I charge them for fixing this cheap computer.
Long winded comment but it is something I needed to get off my shoulders. Hope someone gets something out of it.
Love Technibble. You do one hell of a job Bryce.
Rich
Great article and great responses.
Rich, you had me at “More Trojans than a cheap motel.”
I would tend to agree more with Rich and Bill. This weekend I had two computers with nasty infections. I worked about 2.5 hours on each simultaneously before I decided to nuke and pave both for various reasons. How do I bill for both a full-on-battle and a nuke-and-pave? Pretty tough.
In the end I know my clients are happy. They both called me to tell me so. You always hold your breath when you look at the call display, but knowing that there was no way they could have any serious problems that were not of their own making, it was easy to answer the call. Both mentioned that my nuke-and-pave solution had solved problems that they had not even mentioned to me originally.
I love the chase like most techs, I suspect, but you can’t charge your clients for that when you could have backed up data and nuked and paved for the same price as a virus removal on a computer with no guarantee.
In the end I want my clients to call me when they have a problem, but I don’t want to hear from them when my little voice told me to format and reinstall and I did not.
Great point too Rich regarding the cost of a new workstation or laptop. I work mostly for business clients and often tell them that there computer is worthless but my time is not. If they want to pay me to work on an old relic, so be it.
If they agree to new hardware, I make sure it is covered by at least a 3 year Next Business Day Onsite warranty and set up properly from the start. I also find adding some form of filtering on the network so users have more trouble accessing things that will kill their workstations is worth the time I charge them for.
This can be tricky because you dont want to price yourself too high or too low.
@ Bill Schubert, took the words right out of my mouth.
Garunteeing a job’s sucess 100% should come before any issues the client has with paying for it. Your job is to solve the problem first and foremost not try to save them money by doing a lesser job. Let someone who works for peanuts take that type of client.
Bryce, I have been reading your blog for quite some time now, and that statement of trying to remove the virus manually is simply astonishing that it came from you. A pizza tech, maybe.
Certain situations may permit a format reinstall, i.e business clients with software that can’t be reloaded, etc.. but for the general public home visits, the process should be 1. Hardware test, 2. Diagnose seriousness of issue, if virus straight up format reload.
Michael,
If its a simple virus, Ill usually remove it and not format. I can usually remove them quickly and doing a full blown format is just overkill.
Actually, I am using the wrong terminology here. Viruses attach to other files so you’ll probably want to format if its attacked system files or a lot of files. Trojans/Adware/Spyware I’ll usually remove manually if it isnt too bad. Usually these are limited in scope and its obvious what they have done (dropped a file here, a registry there etc..) and its easy to remove. Rootkits I’ll usually format.
In that situation above I found out pretty quickly that there was a rootkit and that was damage from previous infections, so full format was the best solution for this client. Always go with what it best for the client keeping in mind price, time and reliability.
If the virus has done decent damage or unknown what it has done (especially in the case of rootkits) then obviously the best solution for the client will be a format.
I know what you are saying, you are saying that manually removing malware is a half fix and in order to be 100% sure, a format is the only option.
I agree and disagree. I agree that the only way to be 100% sure is to format, but formatting isn’t always the best option,. Business machines with special setups, clients without disks. Price is often a problem for many people too etc.. when all the malware did was drop a single executable and a registry entry. Its just overkill at times.
I also see too many techs saying: “Got a virus? Format”, “Got an error message in IE? Format”, “Your video card driver is playing up? Format”. Thats what I was referencing in the article.
Yea, I agree that I hear the word format too much as a “solution”, generally though if it’s on a business computer and the virus scanner didn’t stop it – I backup/format/restore to prevent any surprises later on. I’ve had viruses that were “removed” but actually had a small program lay dormant for 2 months before reactivating the virus. The virus scanners didn’t pick it up, I had manually check files to figure out what happened, it was being sneaky.
I’ve spent a lot of time getting my virus removal procedure down to about an hour and 15 minutes using mostly UBCD4Win, dr. web, autoruns, and combofix. I’d say it appears to work about 95% of the time, and maybe another 5% of the time I get a client that calls back within two weeks saying the virus has returned (we only offer a 2-week warranty–left over viruses usually return immediately, so after 2 weeks, a returning virus is almost definitely the client’s doing).
If I run into trouble doing a virus removal and it looks like it’s taking longer than normal, I tell the customer that they have a rare and deeply embedded infection that I can’t remove using normal methods, and that I would have to resort to doing a format. We charge double for a format, however, because it takes longer to begin with if you have to backup all the client’s docs and such. They almost always go for it instead of telling me to leave.
It’s the same thing in the rare cases that a customer calls back with a re-infection. I explain that we’ll have to do a format (which will cost more–refunding the failed virus removal + cost for a full format/reinstall = the cost of another virus removal) so at least in these cases I come away with twice the cash, even if it took 3 times longer… not so bad, really.
In the end, it seems worth the hassle in the few cases that the virus removal fails, and I think the failure rate will keep going down as virus removal software and techniques improve. Security is important to software developers now, so I can’t see it getting worse.
Another thing to keep in mind is the condition of the computer when you receive it. We plug all computers in and let the customer show us exactly what the problem is before we start. We then require they sign paperwork stating the problem and agree on our rates before work is started.
Short Story:
A lady brings us a computer and states that it is only slow and she would like for us to perform general maintenance to speed it up. I stated to her that we needed to plug it in and check it out before she leaves. She says its not necessary and begins to leave.
I am thankful that I made her come back so we can see together what kind of shape the computer was in before she left.
The computer was dead.
She agreed to perform the diagnostics, replace the power supply and perform the general OS maintenance on top of that.
When her husband came to pick it up, I was accused of damaging a perfectly good computer that worked when his wife had dropped it off. I tried to explain to him the situation and that his wife was fully aware that the computer did not run when it arrived in our shop. He demanded that I not charge for the service.
I demanded that he look at our security cameras as proof that the computer did not work when it was brought it, I demanded that he read the paper work his wife had signed stating that the computer did not work.
He paid the bill and left. :)
Now I dont know if this was a misunderstanding between this man and his wife or if they were trying to get free computer work out of us, but it happened either way.
Not only should you explain your rates and keep your customer up to date with changes, it is highly recommended that you protect yourself as well.
Good luck everything.
I love the chase like most techs, I suspect, but you can’t charge your clients for that when you could have backed up data and nuked and paved for the same price as a virus removal on a computer with no guarantee. ;)
This is a situation I had with a neighbor. He had a malware on his PC and he called and asked it I could come over and take a look. After a while I told him that the best course of action would be a complete format and reload of the OS and programs. As I did a quick inventory of his system I noticed he had hundreds of games on his PC via Real Arcade. He didn’t have the install files for the games but he said that he “couldn’t” loose the games. We called Real and they said that some of the games were discontinued and they didn’t have the downloads anymore! The neighbor said that he could live with the malware if it meant that he would lose some of his games!
So, how do you all deal with customers when you have to format and reload and they have some programs or games that they “can’t live without” but do not have the software?
I’d say you just have to tell them your rate and do your best to remove the infection. In this case, I don’t see any other option really.
While I do understand the reasoning that Bill and others use for wiping a system and reinstalling, quite honestly if all you ever do is wipe and reinstall then all you will ever be able to do is wipe and reinstall. Heck, you’re not even comfortable enough with your own skills to know the difference between an infected computer and a clean one!
“1 – The ONLY way to ensure the virus is gone.”
Baloney. You give me 2 & 1/2 hours with a computer and I will return it to you 100% virus free and running better than it did new.
“2 – The best bang for the buck for the customer.”
Also not true… OS reinstall, PLUS all relevant updates. MS Office, PLUS all updates. AV software (plus updates), applications, printers, games, PLUS the time to actually backup and restore the data. And are you even 100% certain that you didn’t backup & restore a virus along with the data?
“3 – The best way to return the computer back to its original fast and clean state.”
Possibly, but it’s also several years out of date at this point unless you invested the time to do it right (see #2). You also risk the possibility of overlooking customer data that was stored in non-standard locations.
“4 – The best way to ensure you won’t get the computer back in two weeks with more problems.”
You can’t ensure that, and I would argue that your way is actually MORE likely to result in return visits.
And you omitted #5 – When a customer receives his computer back after a wipe and reinstall it is NEVER the way they left it… Desktop settings, preferences, etc. It’s just different, and from their perspective that leave a negative impression that taints the work you just did for them.
Bryce, your posts never cease to amaze me :)
I love the challenge of being able take on some of the bugs out there with MWB and SuperAntiSpyware. there have been times where i’ve had to tell a client that i was gonna have to reformat his system. but was able to find a way past the bugs (all 1800 of them) and was able to fix it.
The one thing my friend and I both made a pact with (we are both two computer techs from two different contries) is that, we never format the system unless all hope is lost.
Even when he’s wanted to format, I’ve helped him out over the internet using Teamviewer, Recently we’ve had to tag-team a laptop that his co-worker said was clean, but found about 900 bugs, including the elusive Vundo bug as well as a couple toolbar bugs/rootkits/trojans. He wanted to format it and I talked him out of it and we were both able to save that thing. and the co-worker was happy that she didn’t lose anything. I use Super Anti Spyware portable, which can run in safe mode as a .com file, then head back into normal windows and run MWB. normally takes care of everything we’ve found. :)
– Josh
There is no question that removing infections from a computer is time consuming and not a money-maker when you figure in the total hours that are often spent ‘tweaking’ a computer to run it’s very best.
I believe that you do your very best for your client, taking into account their business/personal & financial needs, providing sound advise and putting it in writing so that they may refer back to it if a problem arises. The client must make the ultimate decision and live with it. They will ultimately pay if it has to be redone – OK, yes at a lowered rate.
Going the extra mile (in most cases) provides ‘good will’ and extra sales, and return business in the long run.
I believe in ‘do unto others as you would want them to do unto you’… but don’t mess with their background or their desktop icons!