Education Level

[NETWizz]

This pool is merly a survey of what you have then discussion of what you think is important in IT. What helped you the most?

What do you look for when hiring?

Me, I look for a well-rounded individual and experience is key. Reading a book is not a substitute for doing the job. Take driving a car for example, you could teach someone the rules of the road, have them read a book on how to drive a car etc., but that is no the same as seat time.

That said I like to look for experience with education and certifications or some combination thereof. Basically, if I get someone with a Batchelor's degree in pharmacology, that's weird, but in my opinion better than no degree because if nothing else at least they can probably do assigned tasks and come in with an assumption of literacy. When I screen applicants, I arbitrarily assign some values and weights, but use the same weights for each candidate to make it fair. Simply put we don't need to know what A and B is to know A + B = B + A, so I arbitrarily assign some weight.

What I do is each year of experience at a job, I assign someone +1, but I stop after +5 for any job UNLESS they indicate a promotion or change of duties on their resume.

From there, I weight each degree with the number of years it should take, so an AA or AS is +2, a BA or BS is +2, and a MA or MS is +2. Now each additional degree of the same type I count as half credit.

Hence a candidate with a simple BS or BA gets 4 and that number doesn't differ if they have an AA or AS. That said an AA or AS is 2, but if they have 2 associate's degrees, the second one is 1, so they have 3.

Next I weight each degree as being related or not. If not I divide by 2. So a 4 year degree in pharmacology I weight the same as a 2 year degree in computer information systems for example.



Certifications... I count each certification as +1 if it is an IT cert. IF not, I count it as a half. I count stackable certs as 0.5.

Hence an A+ is 1, a network + is also 1, but CompTIA throws in a stackable cert (I don't remember which one)... That one I count as a half.

I am not saying this is right, but it's what I do.

 

[britechguy]

Well, I have a BSCS, an IT-related bachelor's degree. Also a master's in communication sciences and disorders (speech-language pathology).

 

[callthatgirl]

what kind of business are you running

me reading this post but voted regardless

 

[Blues]

Experience is what matters most. I have found that really IT boils down to problem solving and research skills things that are not specific to any certain type or level of education really. The more education you might have the more time you might have spent honing those skills on academics but IT is a rapidly evolving field where you need to be able to provide solutions to anything from a new way to do business to implementing a common practice in a new place.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Bachelors in college ...not related to tech...although in high school did some computer science (programming)
Additional courses and training heading into criminology, law enforcement, did some block training at police academy when I was in police reserves.
Got back into computers...and started back down that path, some additional college courses, and IT specific training, via CompTIA, as well as quite a bit of vendor specific training and certifications. And a TON of self taught.

 

[HCHTech]

1. Misspelling "Bachelor's" might skew your results, were the respondents lesser humans than the fine, upstanding techs who are members here.
2. I have 2 bachelor's degrees in non-tech fields, but was lucky to enter the workforce just as companies were starting the move to a computer on every desk. It was easy to get involved on the ground floor then, I'll freely admit. 100% self-taught. When I worked in the actuarial sciences, I had several certifications because they were valued. I've never felt the need to pursue an IT cert, and never been in a position where that would be valued.

An observation: You must have to review a LOT of CVs to have worked out an algorithm. I presume there is a minimum score needed to grant an interview?

 

[trevm999]

Some college here. I probably score like a 25 with your method. But I'd say you probably shouldn't count stackable certs at all, and I advise people to not bother putting them on their resume.

Your codifying of it probably could work as a starting point, but it doesn't really address that certain job experience and certifications will be more relevant to a particular job. Also, homelab projects could be listed, and some of them might be more useful than a certification.

Referencing Bloom's Taxonomy:

https://flic.kr/p/6zqTnn

Certifications only prove up to the Comprehension level. This is why you value experience more. A project shows Application level, which means you would be able to test if they can do Analysis for the topic.

 

[Sky-Knight]

I have a BS Degree in Software Engineering, but up until I got this most recent job it's had value approximate to what's on the roll next to my toilet.

If you want a job basically anywhere you have to get through the digital filters, and that basically means you need a BS degree, doesn't have to be in tech, just a BS degree is required to get through the filters to an actual human.

If you're able to bypass all that and work with humans directly, experience is all that matters, documented results in particular. But most places aren't hiring like that anymore.

Industry certifications help too, though that's a hard row to hoe when you've got to renew them annually. How much time do you get per day to dedicate to that? This process can backfire too, because I'm put up against guys that are still advertising MSCE. Which is a long dead certificate, and one of the ways we show value is bringing a team of experts with CURRENT certificates. Because today is what matters, not 20 years ago.

 

[britechguy]

Industry certifications help too, though that's a hard row to hoe when you've got to renew them annually. How much time do you get per day to dedicate to that?

And I've been through this same thing now in two very different sectors: IT and healthcare.

As a speech and language pathologist (SLP) I was at a particular disadvantage because our certifying body, the American Speech-Language and Hearing Association (ASHA), not only required continuing ed to keep your credential (the CCC - Certificate of Clinical Competence) but also membership in the organization. None of the other health therapy professions requires ongoing membership in the certifying body organization to keep one's credentials, though all (to my knowledge) have continuing education requirements.

For the most part, in both spheres, I have found continuing ed to be mostly useless. It's just the same basic stuff, rehashed again, and again, and again for years, and years, and years. Every once in a while a new and fascinating thing makes its way in there, but they're few and far between. Most continuing ed is just the latest variation on a very well worn theme.

In IT, and I've said it here before, I have seen very few true "revolutionary changes" since I started in the field. There have been some major shifts and changes, but they are all very much expansions of well-known foundational themes you learned in college (if you went for an IT-related degree). But changes of all sorts are just constant.

Nothing substitutes for actual field experience, in either field, and you learn more, much more, by having to do it on a daily basis "in real life" than you ever do in any classroom (and you also learn how much of "textbook learning" is either out and out wrong or the emphasis is so misplaced it had might as well be).

And nothing you know in IT in particular remains "current" for very long. The change is so constant, as is the need to keep up with it in whatever niche of the whole field you are in, that it feels like constant, rapid evolution. And the field has expanded to an extent that real specialization, much like in medicine, is absolutely necessary. You literally can't know it all anymore, and that was not true a few decades ago (or maybe it just had a narrow-enough scope that it seemed that way, but it doesn't seem that way, at all, anymore).

 

[trevm999]

I have a BS Degree in Software Engineering, but up until I got this most recent job it's had value approximate to what's on the roll next to my toilet.

If you want a job basically anywhere you have to get through the digital filters, and that basically means you need a BS degree, doesn't have to be in tech, just a BS degree is required to get through the filters to an actual human.

If you're able to bypass all that and work with humans directly, experience is all that matters, documented results in particular. But most places aren't hiring like that anymore.

Industry certifications help too, though that's a hard row to hoe when you've got to renew them annually. How much time do you get per day to dedicate to that? This process can backfire too, because I'm put up against guys that are still advertising MSCE. Which is a long dead certificate, and one of the ways we show value is bringing a team of experts with CURRENT certificates. Because today is what matters, not 20 years ago.

Having a degree isn't much of an issue once you have the experience that's being looked for. It's possible that applications I didn't hear from would be because I didn't have a degree, but my resume performs pretty well getting to the initial interview. And then when you're working with recruiters you get to bypass the filters.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Having a degree isn't much of an issue once you have the experience that's being looked for. It's possible that applications I didn't hear from would be because I didn't have a degree, but my resume performs pretty well getting to the initial interview. And then when you're working with recruiters you get to bypass the filters.

300 job apps over six months in a period of time starting last year, working with 50-60 recruiters, and finally getting a job via a random message on Indeed thanks to a search hit due to an EXTREMELY optimized resume which indeed was filtered by BS degree holders or higher...

Well let's just say my recent sample disagrees with your assessment. And this sample has been replicated by at least 6 other people I've since helped get jobs between March and today.

Jobscan.co taught me the dark magic. Applicant Tracking Systems work the way they do, and you can either learn to manipulate them or find yourself lost and never finding a job. Corporate America hires via filters, and the filters say you need a BS degree for any mid or high level position in IT.

Anyone that's using a different process, I actually applaud... but when you can put out a job offer and get 500+ applicants from online sources in less than 24 hours... things get very ugly, and automation is the only way forward.

This process is even WORSE if you're attempting to get a job with the US Federal government.

I hate it by the way, I've never experienced a more disorienting, disheartening, and dehumanizing process than what most corporations call a hiring process in the US today. Indeed, Linked In, Dice.com... doesn't matter, every last one of those systems is complete and utter garbage that encourages resume inflation over actual skill.

I want to say it's different elsewhere, but two of the six I assisted are in Europe, one in France, the other in the UK. If Canada is different? GREAT! Make sure it stays that way!

 

[trevm999]

300 job apps over six months in a period of time starting last year, working with 50-60 recruiters, and finally getting a job via a random message on Indeed thanks to a search hit due to an EXTREMELY optimized resume which indeed was filtered by BS degree holders or higher...

Well let's just say my recent sample disagrees with your assessment. And this sample has been replicated by at least 6 other people I've since helped get jobs between March and today.

Jobscan.co taught me the dark magic. Applicant Tracking Systems work the way they do, and you can either learn to manipulate them or find yourself lost and never finding a job. Corporate America hires via filters, and the filters say you need a BS degree for any mid or high level position in IT.

Anyone that's using a different process, I actually applaud... but when you can put out a job offer and get 500+ applicants from online sources in less than 24 hours... things get very ugly, and automation is the only way forward.

This process is even WORSE if you're attempting to get a job with the US Federal government.

I hate it by the way, I've never experienced a more disorienting, disheartening, and dehumanizing process than what most corporations call a hiring process in the US today. Indeed, Linked In, Dice.com... doesn't matter, every last one of those systems is complete and utter garbage that encourages resume inflation over actual skill.

I want to say it's different elsewhere, but two of the six I assisted are in Europe, one in France, the other in the UK. If Canada is different? GREAT! Make sure it stays that way!

Oh, I agree that the current situation is pretty rough. And you are playing a numbers game. A degree helped you get an edge in your case by being eligible for jobs that I wouldn't be, but that doesn't mean others aren't getting jobs without a degree. In December I was on the job hunt, and the situation has gotten worse since then, but I had interviews with US based companies. And I still get recruiters messaging me on LinkedIn about jobs, all without a degree.

I'd say the different situation in Canada is that we still have useful recruiters. They're not just worried about number count, they actually work with you and only will present jobs to you that they think would be a good fit. Also, from my experience, provincial government isn't making a degree a hard requirement, but I think federal might be.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Oh, I agree that the current situation is pretty rough. And you are playing a numbers game. A degree helped you get an edge in your case by being eligible for jobs that I wouldn't be, but that doesn't mean others aren't getting jobs without a degree. In December I was on the job hunt, and the situation has gotten worse since then, but I had interviews with US based companies. And I still get recruiters messaging me on LinkedIn about jobs, all without a degree.

I'd say the different situation in Canada is that we still have useful recruiters. They're not just worried about number count, they actually work with you and only will present jobs to you that they think would be a good fit. Also, from my experience, provincial government isn't making a degree a hard requirement, but I think federal might be.

Fair enough, also with the supposed "shortage" of labor, it's causing many orgs to drop their recruitment requirements in many circumstances. If you saw what we're using for our help desk...

Well let's just say it's no shock we've had to fire half of them twice since I started with the company, and it's only been 2.5 months!

 

[NviGate Systems]

Certifications... I count each certification as +1 if it is an IT cert. IF not, I count it as a half. I count stackable certs as 0.5.

Hence an A+ is 1, a network + is also 1, but CompTIA throws in a stackable cert (I don't remember which one)... That one I count as a half.

I am not saying this is right, but it's what I do.

I'll say it bluntly, certifications are nice but useless. A person can study study study and pass every cert with flying colors and not have an ounce of talent for doing the job. You need to find the person that has a passion and drive to learn new things. Routine or book/etc based jobs are like drive through orders, a mundane job almost anyone can do.

Essentially you need someone with a logical, expanding, functional brain. No certification will provide that.

 

[britechguy]

I'll say it bluntly, certifications are nice but useless.

It warms the cockles of my heart to know that there is at least one other person in the universe who holds this opinion. If the majority of people who hold various certifications (and IT certifications, in particular, but not exclusively) didn't seem to do a complete brain purge of all the information needed to get them after passing the exam, I'd value them more. But that just doesn't happen very often at all.

 

[trevm999]

Fair enough, also with the supposed "shortage" of labor, it's causing many orgs to drop their recruitment requirements in many circumstances. If you saw what we're using for our help desk...

Well let's just say it's no shock we've had to fire half of them twice since I started with the company, and it's only been 2.5 months!

Yeah, I was lucky to get in when it was easy to get into entey-level. And I have the position I have now because finding people that have designed distributed architectures and brought them into production.

Professionals with good looking experience can still find jobs in this market. It will probably take longer than it did a year ago. But I can only see entry-level being rough for quite a while.

 

[Sky-Knight]

I'll say it bluntly, certifications are nice but useless. A person can study study study and pass every cert with flying colors and not have an ounce of talent for doing the job. You need to find the person that has a passion and drive to learn new things. Routine or book/etc based jobs are like drive through orders, a mundane job almost anyone can do.

Essentially you need someone with a logical, expanding, functional brain. No certification will provide that.

And yet, you can't get in with a new company of any real scale without them.

I agree they're crap, I could completely hijack this thread of just the crap from the AZ-104 alone, and that's an "easy" test according to Reddit.

 

[NviGate Systems]

And yet, you can't get in with a new company of any real scale without them.

I agree they're crap, I could completely hijack this thread of just the crap from the AZ-104 alone, and that's an "easy" test according to Reddit.

And here we wonder why the IT industry is so messed up. Just a bunch of drones taking orders where nobody understands anything or are playing politics. :/ Those that do understand can't do anything.

 

[Sky-Knight]

And here we wonder why the IT industry is so messed up. Just a bunch of drones taking orders where nobody understands anything or are playing politics. :/ Those that do understand can't do anything.

Where I am, those that understand kill themselves to keep the machine moving. From what I've seen in any industry, that's between 20-30% of the people involved. Everyone else is either a drone or a leach.

And that isn't to say it's a bad thing being a drone, understanding isn't required but the hands that can turn appropriate cranks when ordered to do so fill a valuable role.

The leaches well... we never really quite get rid of those. The part about the process that's always fascinated me is that once someone becomes a drone they tend to always be one. It's the leaders and the leaches that swap positions as the cycle of burnout turns.

And all of this is fed by HR processes where HR people that have no knowledge of how a particular section of the company works are responsible for finding people that are going to perform critical tasks in that company.

It's really endless, and when you think about it too hard you wonder how anyone makes any money ever. But then again, the same thing holds true of the Internet and its inner workings too. The trick is to make a system that's redundant enough to compensate for all this general human failure.

 

[britechguy]

And all of this is fed by HR processes where HR people that have no knowledge of how a particular section of the company works are responsible for finding people that are going to perform critical tasks in that company.

Then things have taken a turn for the very worst since I was last hitting the street for a job. In all my experiences, IT and healthcare, the HR people (and I respect what they do) were strictly administrative in nature. Most of the "finding" materials related to any form of advertising and all of the interviewing and decision-making were in the hands of the managers of the projects/departments that were hiring.

HR really "handled all the paperwork" but generation of job descriptions and all interviewing and hiring decisions were not theirs to make.