Cryptocurrencies

What cryptocurrencies do you use/own?

  • Bitcoin (XBT)

    Votes: 30 27.8%
  • Ether (ETH)

    Votes: 16 14.8%
  • Litecoin (LTC)

    Votes: 15 13.9%
  • Peercoin (PPC)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dash (DASH)

    Votes: 3 2.8%
  • Dogecoin (XDG)

    Votes: 4 3.7%
  • Blackcoin (BLK)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zcash (ZEC)

    Votes: 3 2.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 14 13.0%
  • None

    Votes: 69 63.9%

  • Total voters
    108

Moltuae

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With Bitcoin in the limelight again, now closing in on $1000 per coin, after an incredible year of continuous growth, I wonder what everyone's thoughts and predictions are for the coming years and for the lesser-known cryptocurrencies that aren't (yet?) making mainstream news.

I assume most people here were early adopters, having the advantage of possessing the technical skills required to purchase and secure digital currency. Personally, I got into cryptocurrencies a little late. I did buy some Bitcoin a few years ago, when prices were around $10 per coin but unfortunately I didn't have the foresight to mine or buy it in any significant quantities back then. Bitcoin was already around $100-$200 before I really started using it.

Presently I own/use Bitcoin but also a little Ether, Dogecoin and Dash. Personally I think Zcash is the one to watch (when the price stops bombing and it eventually stabilizes) mainly because it builds on Bitcoin blockchain technology but improves privacy. I think Dogecoin is a bit of a joke (intentionally of course) and I would be surprised if it ever becomes mainstream. I'm not sure about Dash but I think Ether (Ethereum) shows promise, especially due to the 'smart contract' functionality.

So what's everyone's thoughts and predictions and which cryptocurrencies are you trading?
 
Personally I've not gotten into crypto currencies. By the time Bitcoin showed up on my radar it was already beyond what I was willing to plunk down for a small investment. Plus I've always have a problem with the finite amount thing that is part of it's ecosystem. But thanks for the list. I'll have to start keeping an eye on those.
 
By the time Bitcoin showed up on my radar it was already beyond what I was willing to plunk down for a small investment.
For a 1 (full) Bitcoin do you mean? You can purchase fractions of coins (mBTC, even uBTC). As little as $10-100 from some exchanges if you want to get into cryptocurrency with minimal risk.

Never store your currency in an exchange though ... use an offline (cold storage) wallet.
 
I think you'll find that most people are NOT into it at all.
You're right, most people aren't. Most people struggle to understand what cryptocurrencies are, let alone work out how to use them. Still, millions do.

I would expect a tech community to be among those who are ahead of the game though. It'll be an interesting result just the same if that turns out not to be the case.
 
My guess is that the moment one of these starts to look like a serious player in the financial market place, governments will move in to squash/stop/eat it. Too much to go wrong/lose if folks start using 'unauthorized' money.
 
governments will move in to squash/stop/eat it
A few governments have already tried to control it, especially in countries that that are facing economic turmoil or a weakening fiat currency, such as Venezuela, India and China. Most attempts to stop people abandoning their country's fiat currency in favour of bitcoin have had little effect so far.

It's kind of like file-sharing. Blocks will be circumvented sooner or later. Short of cutting people off from the internet it's very difficult to stop.
 
Why would techs have a need or incentive to get into digital currencies, other than as a speculative investment, out of simple curiosity, or as a currency for criminal transactions? Without a pressing need or clear benefits over conventional currencies, it seems to me it will not be popular among techs.
Hadn't really thought of like that. I suppose I assume that most people who became techs do so for same reasons I did; an insatiable curiosity, a love of technology and an irresistible urge to understand how everything works (and I mean EVERYTHING).

For me, the ingenuity of cryptocurrencies also appeals to my love of mathematics and programming. I think when you've studied the technology and watched it develop, there's also a fascination and realisation that you're witnessing the start of something huge -- possibly even bigger and more disruptive than the internet itself -- but, I can appreciate that people aren't going to study it if there's no initial passion or interest.

If it transpires that few members here follow cryptocurrency technology, I think that would raise some interesting questions (in my mind at least). I wonder what those who do follow it have in common? ... An interest in mathematics and programming? ... or perhaps it's a nationality thing?
 
Personally, I want nothing to do with them. It seems the only time I encounter anyone needing/wanting payment in such currencies is to pay a ransom.
 
Hadn't really thought of like that. I suppose I assume that most people who became techs do so for same reasons I did; an insatiable curiosity, a love of technology and an irresistible urge to understand how everything works (and I mean EVERYTHING).

For me, the ingenuity of cryptocurrencies also appeals to my love of mathematics and programming. I think when you've studied the technology and watched it develop, there's also a fascination and realisation that you're witnessing the start of something huge -- possibly even bigger and more disruptive than the internet itself -- but, I can appreciate that people aren't going to study it if there's no initial passion or interest.

If it transpires that few members here follow cryptocurrency technology, I think that would raise some interesting questions (in my mind at least). I wonder what those who do follow it have in common? ... An interest in mathematics and programming? ... or perhaps it's a nationality thing?
Everyone that I know who IS into Bitcoin cites either the fear of some kind of global economic collapse or they simply see a good, if ridiculous, investment opportunity and are only involved in it to bank on the novelty of it.
None of these pseudo-currencies have all the features needed to become a real money. Economics is a science and Money has a scientific definition that must hold up in order for something to become money. And it isn't just a lack of adoption that is holding that back. It simply isn't possible for them to assume that role.

There is some value in Blockchain technology but there is nothing in that that needs to be tied to a new currency. Blockchains can be done with Dollars, Euros, Pound Sterling, whatever you are using.
 
Personally, I want nothing to do with them. It seems the only time I encounter anyone needing/wanting payment in such currencies is to pay a ransom.
Unfortunately, for a lot of people, that's the only time they hear about it. So it's an understandable and popular attitude.

But you can't blame the medium for the crime. Cash has always been a favourite with criminals too and cryptocurrency appeals to them for similar reasons. If we were to let the potential for criminal use stand in the way of progress we probably wouldn't have the internet. Inadequate software security is to blame for such criminal activity, not the way in which they get paid.
 
None of these pseudo-currencies have all the features needed to become a real money. Economics is a science and Money has a scientific definition that must hold up in order for something to become money. And it isn't just a lack of adoption that is holding that back. It simply isn't possible for them to assume that role.
I think that's an interesting perspective. I remember you mentioned something about that before. Personally, I don't see how a cryptocurrency can't behave as well as (if not better than) a fiat currency. I'm not saying Bitcoin necessarily -- it may take a few more evolutionary steps before we have a perfect cryptocurrency -- but the factors that determine how the currency behaves, the mining rewards and the limited supply, are all infinitely configurable. What features do you feel are missing? Governmental control? Personally I think that's something we're better off without.

There is some value in Blockchain technology but there is nothing in that that needs to be tied to a new currency. Blockchains can be done with Dollars, Euros, Pound Sterling, whatever you are using.
True. But those are limited and controlled by banks and government. That's great if, like you and I, you're lucky enough to be living in a part of the world where that's possible but what about the world's 'unbanked population'?:

http://www.mckinsey.com/industries/financial-services/our-insights/counting-the-worlds-unbanked


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Cryptocurrencies make it possible to send money to/from anyone on the planet (assuming they have internet access). That has astonishing implications. Not only does it help less fortunate people in developing countries to trade with the rest of the world, it has the potential to make a dramatic difference to disaster relief operations when needed funds can be sent instantly to stricken areas:
http://www.coindesk.com/can-bitcoin-make-a-difference-in-the-global-aid-sector/
 
I was aware of Bitcoin way back when, but I've had laptops as my primary devices for close to 20 years and those have never been a good choice for mining. In fact, I don't think I've ever owned a PC with anything that would be considered a high-end or even solidly midrange graphics card.

I did burn some laptop cycles mining some Dogecoin (much currency!) for the amusement value of potentially being able to tip with them rather than expecting them to ever have value, and I set up a Coinbase account with ~$25 worth of Bitcoin at one point in case I ended up needing to get it quickly in case of customer ransomware. I've long since dumped almost all of that by using it to renew a couple of domains at Namecheap.

While I suppose I could be full of regret over missing the runup in Bitcoin prices, if I'm going to regret anything about my technology investments I think I'd be better off wishing I'd kept the $2500 or so Apple stock I bought (and sold) back in the late 90s before the iPod came out.
 
These days I can think of only one reason or way that I'd try to mine Bitcoin (or most other cryptocurrencies): If I had solar panels (or a small wind generator) and lived in a state where the power utility had bought rules/policies that made it difficult or expensive to sell excess power back onto the grid. In that scenario I could easily see running some of the dedicated mining equipment to get value for the power that I effectively couldn't do anything else with.
 
I think that's an interesting perspective. I remember you mentioned something about that before. Personally, I don't see how a cryptocurrency can't behave as well as (if not better than) a fiat currency. I'm not saying Bitcoin necessarily -- it may take a few more evolutionary steps before we have a perfect cryptocurrency -- but the factors that determine how the currency behaves, the mining rewards and the limited supply, are all infinitely configurable. What features do you feel are missing? Governmental control? Personally I think that's something we're better off without.
Money has nothing to do with Government. True money exists outside of government control. Gold was used as Money long before Governments made use of it. Government's initial role in coining money is simply to regulate a common rate of exchange. If it had Ceaser's mark on it then you knew it weighed so much and thus had a fixed value. Gold can't be counterfeited, it is still gold even if you melt it down.

For something to function as Money it must have 3 things. (This is not MY definition it is economics). It must serve as a medium of exchange, a unit of accounting, and a store of value.

Note for ease of conversation I am going to use Bitcoin and Dollars. In most cases, you can substitute other DC money and other local currency.

Bitcoin or other DCs are not a medium of exchange. Not everyone takes them, few are prepared to take them nor is that really likely to change. Dollars, Euros, Pounds, etc. all serve this function bitcoin does not nor is it likely to because there isn't anything wrong with Dollars performing that role. No one here is going to refuse a Dollar. It may have it's problems but it is universally accepted.

Bitcoin is not a unit of accounting. People do not calculate their wealth in Bitcoin. They do not post prices in bitcoin. They do not keep their ledger's in Bitcoin. And people who hoard bitcoin know the exact value in Dollars and here in the US you are taxed and expected to pay your capital gains taxes you earned selling Bitcoin in Dollars.

And finally, it is not a store of value. While you can criticize the Dollar for dropping in value due to inflation it doesn't thrash about fluctuating wildly in a single day. People save money with the expectation that it will more or less be of same purchasing value when they need it later. You can't do that with Bitcoin. Nor can more Bitcoin be created as needed, in the form of loans, when there is a higher demand for it. The numerous banks, for all of their many faults, DO provide stability to the buying power of money. Bitcoin, by DESIGN, can't do this and thus it NEVER can be money.
 
Money has nothing to do with Government. True money exists outside of government control. Gold was used as Money long before Governments made use of it. Government's initial role in coining money is simply to regulate a common rate of exchange. If it had Ceaser's mark on it then you knew it weighed so much and thus had a fixed value. Gold can't be counterfeited, it is still gold even if you melt it down.

For something to function as Money it must have 3 things. (This is not MY definition it is economics). It must serve as a medium of exchange, a unit of accounting, and a store of value.

Note for ease of conversation I am going to use Bitcoin and Dollars. In most cases, you can substitute other DC money and other local currency.

Bitcoin or other DCs are not a medium of exchange. Not everyone takes them, few are prepared to take them nor is that really likely to change. Dollars, Euros, Pounds, etc. all serve this function bitcoin does not nor is it likely to because there isn't anything wrong with Dollars performing that role. No one here is going to refuse a Dollar. It may have it's problems but it is universally accepted.

Bitcoin is not a unit of accounting. People do not calculate their wealth in Bitcoin. They do not post prices in bitcoin. They do not keep their ledger's in Bitcoin. And people who hoard bitcoin know the exact value in Dollars and here in the US you are taxed and expected to pay your capital gains taxes you earned selling Bitcoin in Dollars.

And finally, it is not a store of value. While you can criticize the Dollar for dropping in value due to inflation it doesn't thrash about fluctuating wildly in a single day. People save money with the expectation that it will more or less be of same purchasing value when they need it later. You can't do that with Bitcoin. Nor can more Bitcoin be created as needed, in the form of loans, when there is a higher demand for it. The numerous banks, for all of their many faults, DO provide stability to the buying power of money. Bitcoin, by DESIGN, can't do this and thus it NEVER can be money.
I understand your point and I agree that no digital currency is presently anywhere close to universal acceptance. It's been only a few years since its inception though. It would be unreasonable to expect that it could become so established in such a short time. It does however have huge potential and acceptance (of Bitcoin at least) is moving at an incredible rate. In a few countries it is already fulfilling a currency role, replacing a failing or waning fiat currency.

I totally understand your point of view though -- it's exactly what I thought when I first read about digital currencies. I couldn't understand how some made-up 'tokens' -- mere numbers in a computer -- could ever amount to much. Seemed to me like a scam even, but I was intrigued by the concept.

I think it takes an almost philosophical view point before you begin to understand why the technology is such a big deal and potentially world-changing. You have to forget your preconceptions and really think hard about what money and wealth is. Go back to basics and think about how and why we need a monetary system and the function it plays. For example, you talk about the 'value' of gold. Think about that for a moment. Why is this particular metal considered valuable? Aside from its decorative value, is it really that special?

Gold is considered valuable because we have all agreed that it is -- really, that's all. The scarcity of it helps and markings like Ceaser's stamp or hallmarks only serve to verify authenticity, just like the watermarks and ID numbers on banknotes. I think the turning point in understanding why digital currency is no different is when you realise that gold, cash, numbers in your bank account .... they're all the same ... a measure of your wealth or how much you are 'owed'. No matter what system we adopt, what matters most is that the central ledger that keeps tabs on everyone's wealth is reliable, trustworthy, incorruptible and stable. We're certainly not there yet with digital currency but it has the potential to fulfil all of those requirements better than any other monetary system.

The fact that there is a finite limt of Bitcoins out there is a big issue. Just as it has hit the $1000 mark like it did before, it can and will drop back down to a few $100.
Remember that gold is also in finite supply.

Well, time will tell which way the price goes, though it has been rising very steadily for the last couple of years. Stability takes time and, perhaps unsurprisingly, all new cryptocurrencies fluctuate wildly to begin with. But, for Bitcoin at least, the charts indicate an ever increasing stability.

I think you misunderstand the reason for the limited supply though. The Bitcoin blockchain was designed that way intentionally (to mimic gold) -- not all cryptocurrencies are in finite supply. A finite supply (of anything) has the exact the opposite effect; it tends to cause an increase in value, not a drop.

It's all self-regulating and quite ingenuous when you think about it ... let me try to explain: 'Miners' attempt to discover new coins by solving complex mathematical problems. The value of their 'discovery' is initially set by their overheads and the ease in which they are able to discover new coins. Because there are many miners, competition limits profit, setting a value a little above what the coins cost to compute. As time goes on and the number of coins left to mine reduces, their value gradually increases. But every few years the complexity automatically doubles, halving the 'reward' or profit that the miners can make, effectively regulating prices and the supply.

For a better explanation than I can give: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_supply


This is a difficult concept to get your head around, but think about this: An ideal currency should be finite and have no value. By which I mean, the physical currency itself, be it coins, gold, whatever should be valueless. I'm not talking about the value it represents. The value it represents essentially makes it an IOU. The value of that IOU should, ideally, remain fixed. What you're owed should not change but because of inflation/deflation it does. Governments print/make new money, devaluing your IOU, effectively taking money from you in much the same way as share dilution reduces the value of any shares you may hold, giving it to the new shareholders. Any new currency has the same issue initially. You have to find a way to gradually distribute and introduce the currency that allows the value to remain stable while it grows.
 
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