I HATE Windows 10 "Apps"

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy Oh yeah, Windows Update provided driver updates are a huge advance over no updates at all. But when I'm working for a client I push as far forward as I can, to minimize the odds of them returning soon. A desktop used to be in for service every six to eight months on the average with Windows XP. With Windows 10 it's 18-24 months before it needs any attention, and often they can go 36-48 months.

Those driver updates are essential to ensure the semi-annual feature updates go in smoothly and automatically, so I'm glad they're there. But that's also why I'm glad Microsoft drew the line int he sand for Windows 11. All of this cannot be maintained forever, and getting everyone to drop ancient hardware only means all this keeps spinning for the newer stuff.

Because as with anything, the more crap you put in it, the slower it gets. Windows Update's database is a monster of a scale that I'd rather not think about honestly. The idea of it growing to incorporate everything forever? That's just not reasonable. If for no other reason than the length of time it would take to query such a monstrous database.

 

[britechguy]

@Sky-Knight

With regard to database size, which I'll admit will be huge no matter what, the "line in the sand" allows Microsoft to engage in much needed continuous pruning of said database, too.

I wouldn't want them (or anyone, really) to be following a "keep forever" model for drivers. It's the very antithesis of what makes sense to do.

However it actually works, I've not experienced any massive install time lags with it.

 

[Blues]

Windows automatic driver updates work for a lot but not everything I remember it updating my video driver and man did I have a terrible time trying to roll it back and repair it because it wasn't as good a driver as the one updated through my video card utilities.

 

[britechguy]

I remember it updating my video driver and man did I have a terrible time trying to roll it back and repair it

The key thing here is the answer to the question, "When was this?"

I doubt that there is a single one of us here who did not experience something similar in the earlier days of Windows 10, and who have not experienced anything vaguely similar in at least two or three years.

That's my main point in harping on this. What was characteristic of this function in the past, and earlier in its evolution, is not characteristic now. I won't say that an issue never happens, because I'd never say never, but it's so very seldom compared to what it once was, and it's easier to keep track of the exceptions now than the rule that all is fine.

 

[Blues]

I ran into this about a year ago and the problem was not all the features in my video card utility worked after the windows update. My point is while improved like all things we still must use caution and be prepared for issues.

 

[Sky-Knight]

I ran into this about a year ago and the problem was not all the features in my video card utility worked after the windows update. My point is while improved like all things we still must use caution and be prepared for issues.

Graphics drivers for real GPUs are almost always handled via AMD or nVidia provided tools because yea... the ones shipped by Microsoft are generic and minimalist. These will always benefit from proper maintenance.

The point is the Windows Update driver is there, so when you hit a feature update the thing completes, works, and leaves you in a place where you can double click an updated driver into place after the fact when you find an issue... Instead of rebooting to a black screen of death like it used to be.

 

[britechguy]

My point is while improved like all things we still must use caution and be prepared for issues.

I'm not arguing against that, either, or ever.

But the choice is either turning the Windows Update feature off, and having everything be manual (or pushed, which is still involving human choice and intervention at the outset), or dealing with the rare exception.

I guess my actual approach is that one cannot "use caution" over something which one has zero control over, other than to decline to use it, and with the track record Windows Update has for driver updates now, I'd never even consider doing that. But I do always have in the back of my mind that every once in a very great while there will be a problem that will require correction by human intervention.

There seems to be a huge lag between perception of how the Windows Update driver update is actually working and how it did once work.

 

[britechguy]

Graphics drivers for real GPUs are almost always handled via AMD or nVidia provided tools

Yep. My machines with AMD Radeon Graphics use the Radeon Software to handle that. I class that in with the other manufacturer utilities that need to be used as a matter of standard practice, since graphics drivers seem to get updates significantly more frequently than many other types, and those updates very often never even hit the support pages of the computer's OEM.

 

[Blues]

I think my circumstance was the odd rarity where windows update had stopped so had to force a manual update and the video driver got included and I just remember how much grief it gave me trying to roll it back and remove the video driver to reload a good one from my GPU maker. Yes you can't use caution when it is automated but when running a manual version of what should be automated we should exercise caution.

 

[Sky-Knight]

In those cases both AMD and nVidia have "safe mode" installation options on their driver installers. It's not fool proof, but it's taken care of every driver issue I've had in the last few years.

Going back before that though... ugh nightmares of using Revo uninstaller and manually vacuuming junk out of the registry to get rid of a borked driver for replacement.

Haven't had to do that in a very long while though.

 

[Blues]

I don't recall the full details but I know that the manufacturer supplied drivers and tools would not work properly for me and I believe I had to go into regedit to get it resolved in the end.

 

[britechguy]

I don't recall the full details but I know that the manufacturer supplied drivers and tools would not work properly for me and I believe I had to go into regedit to get it resolved in the end.

Well, I doubt that there are any of us here who have not been faced with "the exception from hell."

There seem to be times when everything we've come to expect, including the bad/bizarre stuff, isn't what's occurred in "the exception from hell" and it's like having to start all over again teasing everything out. And the ultimate solutions are generally painful and involve a lot of "under the hood tinkering" that we never thought we'd have to do.

These days I'm way more inclined to go the Nuke and Pave route when something like this happens and I have the option. It's generally more economically friendly for the customer, too, even if there's rebuilding work, since for these sorts of situations it becomes obvious, and quickly, that finding a solution will not be fast, and there's no guarantee a solution will actually be found.

If one is doing it as a personal challenge, though, rather than a billable, that changes the situation and what I'd do as well.

 

[NviGate Systems]

The only time I don't let Windows 10 handle drivers is with certain legacy systems that I know cause problems like on some laptops. Specifically if the laptop shipped with 7 or 8 but has no support for 10. Some features only work with the original OEM drivers, and some are signed and will work in Windows 10, such as most drivers for Windows 8 for things like FreeFall Sensors, Ambient Light Sensors and more.

 

[GTP]

Really, the only driver problems I have - and have often - is with anything AMD Radeon.
Their driver software is a nightmare, seriously.

 

[britechguy]

Their driver software is a nightmare, seriously.

Another of those, "my experience is diametrically opposed to yours," things.

AMD Radeon Software has been "set it and forget it" in my experience.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Another of those, "my experience is diametrically opposed to yours," things.

AMD Radeon Software has been "set it and forget it" in my experience.

For GPUs, for CPUs and chipsets things can and often do go wrong. AMD's software support is rather crap relative to Intel's even if their hardware is currently superior.

 

[britechguy]

AMD's software support is rather crap relative

And, making clear that I am not denying either your experience, nor that of @Barcelona, they are diametrically opposed to my own.

 

[Sky-Knight]

And, making clear that I am not denying either your experience, nor that of @Barcelona, they are diametrically opposed to my own.

Relative crap doesn't mean bad, it just means I have more odd incidents happening on AMD based systems than I do Intel. The old Wintel combo still remains strongest. That isn't to say AMD + Windows isn't a solid solution, it's just not quite as good in terms of stability.

BUT right now that minor ding in stability results in real performance gains for CPU intense workloads. So if you need to really crank on the CPU, AMD is a winner. Microsoft is using AMD tech heavily in Azure for a reason! We should be too.

It's just that on a desktop, for my use cases speed isn't the driver, stability is. So Intel for me is the processor of choice for all deployed platforms. For me personally though... I think my next desktop will be AMD based.

 

[britechguy]

Relative crap doesn't mean bad,

OK, but that observation was in direct response to one declaring it a "nightmare." That carries a subtext of agreement, at least for me, in context.

Now we have a revision that makes your stance more apparent, and more at variance with "nightmare."

I'm not now, nor ever will be, one who wishes to engage in the AMD versus Intel wars (and I'm not saying you are, this is a general observation). Both companies have been major players for as long as they have because both make product that works, and sometimes one is better than the other for specific applications and in specific timeframes.

I'm a mixed Intel and AMD household, with AMD holding the majority in raw numbers and the machines in very active use. But that's not because I have any distaste for Intel, it's just the way things have worked out.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy Yeah, I should have been more clear on that, which is why I posted my more recent comments.

There is however the catch that, I have had nightmares caused by AMD in the past, and I'm more likely to have them in the future. This is due to the vastly shorter support lifecycle AMD uses relative to Intel.

BUT, here and now in 2021 it's apparent that Intel is working to shorten that fuse too, so going forward I'm not sure there's a difference here with sufficient distinction to discuss. As it is, the quality of all things right now is generally terrible. So I'm afraid we're all going to look back on these few years and call all this hardware pandemic specials as we replace them all.

Much like how we had to replace mainboards like they were candy back in the mid 2000s due to bad capacitors. We might be at the beginning of yet another industry wide mess. But, only time will tell on that.

For now I actively recommend the Ryzen 5 5600G because its integrated graphics is the best we can get, and discrete GPUs are stupid expensive. The APU isn't a replacement for a GPU, but at least those units can get by while we wait for the GPU market to correct itself.