SpinRite still relevant?

Further to what @Joep just wrote, some drives, particularly SMR Seagates, will report a sector as being read without error when, in reality, it has read a garbage pattern, usually due to a weak head.

If we consult what DeepSpar says about long reads for example, we know we have a better chance of getting garbage than actual data .. “You must keep in mind that modern hard drives could respond to this command in five different ways, and only one of those responses is helpful for your recovery efforts.”

And if we then consider this: ..

1732647987800.png

.. it is obvious that the data 'recovered' by SpinRite looks nothing like surrounding sectors and is therefore likely nonsense data. But since SR has now written the bogus data, we will for certain veer be able to recover the original sector.

If we then consider SpinRite is frequently used on drives that can fail any second, all this writing back of bogus data is a complete waste of opportunity to rescue the data from a drive by writing it to another drive instead.
 
Last edited:
If ever a topic demonstrated that an individual can be brilliant in one arena and completely off the beam in another, this one would be it.

Knowing what to give weight to, and what to toss aside, is central to critical thinking, as is not throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
 
If we consult what DeepSpar says about long reads for example, we know we have a better chance of getting garbage than actual data .. “You must keep in mind that modern hard drives could respond to this command in five different ways, and only one of those responses is helpful for your recovery efforts.”

And if we then consider this: ..

View attachment 17014

.. it is obvious that the data 'recovered' by SpinRite looks nothing like surrounding sectors and is therefore likely nonsense data. But since SR has now written the bogus data, we will for certain veer be able to recover the original sector.

If we then consider SpinRite is frequently used on drives that can fail any second, all this writing back of bogus data is a complete waste of opportunity to rescue the data from a drive by writing it to another drive instead.
Those hex graphics look familiar. :D Amazing how, my blog from 10 years ago is still relevant today.
 
Amazing how, my blog from 10 years ago is still relevant today.

No, it's not. And I mean that as a compliment. Basics are basics, and they really don't change.

So much of what gets touted as "revolutionary!" in this business is anything but. It's more likely to be the latest variation on a very old theme indeed.
 
If you have an older SSD that has slowed down, getting lots of read errors, you "fix" it instantly with a secure erase command which resets all sectors back to 0x00 almost instantly...usually takes 10-20 seconds to complete. Of course the data is erased, but the objective is to "fix" the drive, not recover the data. If one wanted to recover the data, they'd be cloning it, not "fixing" it.
So if you have a drive that is backed up, is there real benefits to a complete read/write back of every sector of an SSD? Assuming that the drive is otherwise healthy that would be faster than an image, secure erase, restore. Wouldn’t?
 
Those hex graphics look familiar. :D Amazing how, my blog from 10 years ago is still relevant today.
Yes, and believe it or not, I participated in the grc development and I showed him the exact same image and suggested to SG, when you 'recover' a sector look at entropy of the sector before and after it, and then compare to what you have recovered. This will give a pretty good idea if what you have 'recovered' isn't actually random nonsense. The self proclaimed guru ignored this.

I also urged him several times, to write recovered data to a different drive. This isn't that hard I know because I have written DOS based data recovery software too and the destination drive was just a simple parameter I passed along with a write command. So it could be the source drive or some other drive. I believe that coding this 6.1 update took several years, adding the option to write to a different drive should have been achievable and would have made so much difference!

Anyway, during course of development he had several, how do you call this, phenomena he ran into which he initially explained in the way he so often does, as 'conspiracies' as if hard drives were hiding certain things from us, that they wrote corrupt data without telling us, how they were not telling us about failed reads etc.. I immediately explained to him that cause of corruption could be somewhere else, not the hard drive, and that hard drive may actually believe it's writing correct data. I told him so several times even .. It's a known phenomena and it's called silent corruption.

It goes like this: if I read from a drive and place it in a buffer (RAM) and the data is corrupted while in the buffer, and I then write it back, the drive computes a new ECC over what I write back. As far as the drive is concerned this is valid data and there's no reason to report errors. And this is exactly what the 'guru' ran into but failed to reach the correct conclusion initially. Instead he blamed the drive. (they're lying to us and I SG am on to them!!) When he finally was forced to change his view because a mem test on that PC where this was observed revealed memory issues he adopted it, hyped it, and added this lame memory check to SpinRite.

During development, which I followed closely, I basically offered what I know about data recovery but I was largely ignored. That's okay, but then I come to certain conclusions along the way. For example I observed how 'testers' despite the advice not to run SpinRite on SSDs, did so anyway and observed improved performance. Everyone was surprised, not me as this can be easily explained by tons of research papers. I told him he was simply reading 'cold' (slow) data that weakened over time due to imperfect retention and that if you simply re-write the data it solves the issue. Modern drives do this by themselves because it's a known phenomena.

And so I did and slowly SG's stance on SSDs changed and then he began explaining the observation as if he understood what was happening, which was demonstrably wrong (he blamed read disturb). When I did a blogpost on what I observed and basically reached the conclusion he's no expert and hard drive guru at all, Now he's using this as selling point for SpinRite, and using it to 'prove' his snake oil is still relevant today.

FWIW read-disturb is a real thing, but several research papers (which I shared with him) identify retention as the biggest factor. Simply put, we can:

- Measure if bit errors are a result of increased cell charge (disturb errors, they force extra electrons into neighboring cells) or decreased charge (retention errors, charge leaks from cells and once below critical threshold the value of the cell flips).

- We can examine by experimenting .. We take NAND and age it (by p/e cycles) so we can observe anomalies easier. We then compare effect of read disturb by writing to specific cells, say 10000 times and observe effect on neighboring cells .. Or we let same artificially aged NAND just sit after writing data .. It turns out just letting data sit is as 'effective' as thousand and thousands of p/e cycles. There's no comparison, retention is the biggest factor unless we unleash unrealistic amounts of p/e cycles on neighboring cells (which may be realistic in some specific scenarios but no on the average Joe's PC).

SG ignores this and he does because 'he knows' .. After all he's the guru ..

I participated in his newsgroup with the hope to convince him to write recovered data to a different drive and shared some of my observation along the way. I am glad I did because I now know SG is nothing but a phoney to put it mildly. He BTW has now blocked me from accessing any of his websites (I guess he never heard of VPNs).
 
Last edited:
God complexes, particularly when combined with the need to market something, along with belief in The One True Way run rife in "the highest echelons" of IT, regardless of sub-specialty.

My mind is made up, don't contradict me with facts and logic!
 
Back
Top