Upgrading Linux is messy

[Diggs]

I'm a long time Linux user but by no means an expert. I'd become complacent with my Linux installs and was still sitting on Mint 18.3 (Mate) from 2017 - . I thought I could jump straight to the latest 21.3. Noooo!!! I had to use the command line upgrade manager to move to 19.0, then GUI to 19.3, then command line to 20.0 (manually fix GRUB), then to 20.3 and then to 21.0 and finally 21.1 but by the time I got there there was no data or user programs left and many things didn't work. Yes, just like Windows I should have done a clean install but I wanted to see how this went in Linux instead of Windows. I was totally frustrated and underwhelmed. There may be a way to drop a 21.3 DVD in a 18.3 machine and come out the other end with a 21.3 machine and all the customer data and programs intact but I don't know of it and couldn't find it with immense Googling. Mint does have Timeshift included and I'm restoring back to a save around 19.1 (or even 18.3) and will go from there again. Regardless, this all humbles my Linuxness.......

 

[nlinecomputers]

Can’t help but laugh at this. At least you can rollback to a safe point.

 

[nlinecomputers]

This is a “we are all rooting for ya, but glad it’s not me” kind of laugh.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Yeah... I'm not rooting for you, nor am I laughing. I'm shaking my head, with my palm on my face.

Why would you do this? Why?

Would you upgrade Windows 2000 straight to Windows 11? NO you wouldn't... and you have no expectation to. Linux is no different, Mint in particular has gone through many changes, and in the versions you're referring to they've actually changed from Gnome to KDE and back again.

There is no "upgrade" here, just like on the Windows side of the fence. When a unit is that far behind, you backup the user's data, you pave the unit and redeploy it. Not only is that process vastly more time efficient, it doesn't involve any esoteric nightmare conditions that put you in an unsupportable state.

So yeah I'm shaking my head, because you're wasting time with an upgrade they never should have been attempted. This is nuke and pave territory. Upgrades are only available to those that KEEP UP. Because the upgrade always has broad experience with many people at the time everyone upgrades. You get out of step with the herd, and you pay for it. This is "unsupported", it is probably "possible", but it's not ideal in any measurable way.

Cut your losses now, nuke and pave. Even if the restore works, you've restored to an unknown state with time bombs everywhere. Get to known good! Nuke and pave!

 

[Diggs]

Yep, even my Timeshift backups are corrupted. The machine was mostly a workbench tool so nothing lost that can't be re-created really other than time. @Sky-Knight it was a project of geekness and curiosity. I've never pushed around a Linux install (and GRUB) like that before. I learned allot. I have another couple of Linux machines I need to update - chuckles........

 

[Diggs]

Would you upgrade Windows 2000 straight to Windows 11?

That's 22 years. I was just trying to upgrade 5 years which would have been substantially less than Windows 10 (9 years) by itself.

 

[timeshifter]

So 2023 is not the year of Linux on the desktop?

 

[Sky-Knight]

Yep, even my Timeshift backups are corrupted. The machine was mostly a workbench tool so nothing lost that can't be re-created really other than time. @Sky-Knight it was a project of geekness and curiosity. I've never pushed around a Linux install (and GRUB) like that before. I learned allot. I have another couple of Linux machines I need to update - chuckles........

Ahh that's fair! If you just wanted to do it for the exercise, just well... It helps to know you're diving in to lose some hair on the way through. Mint is based on Ubuntu LTS, so you get a 5 year supported life from each major release, with a new release every two years.

Because it's Ubuntu based, usually you can use Ubuntu's upgrade process on Mint: https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/upgrade-ubuntu-20-04-lts-to-22-04-lts/

The only thing that really chagnes are the actual repo targets. But Mint is sort of special in that it has a mintupgrade package that's supposed to automate all this. Still, with the way the kernel modules work with X, and all the changes Mint loves to make to whatever desktop environment they chose this week... stuff gets WEIRD.

I haven't touched Mint in ages personally, used it to great success with my kids when they were toddlers though.

But yeah, Windows is Windows, and the entire platform is Microsoft provided and controlled so upgrades are fairly consistent.
MacOS is Apple, and completely monopolistically siloed in software and hardware, so its upgrades are even MORE consistent.

Mint? Mint is Ubuntu tuned to be more Windows like, and uses hundreds of different open source software solutions to do all sorts of things that wrap up into what you see as a desktop OS. If any of those components gets screwy because of a config file somewhere... splat. Which is VERY likely.

 

[britechguy]

So 2023 is not the year of Linux on the desktop?

As it was for 1991 through 2022, and will be for 2024 . . .

Linux is never going to take the desktop world by storm, and I so wish those who keep predicting it will would clue-in to reality. It's been in the marketplace more than long enough to have done so were it to have ever done so.

But, my heavens, it's made inroads into data centers to an extent I would never have dreamed possible!

 

[Sky-Knight]

*Nix owns everything that isn't the desktop.

Android is Linux. iOS is BSD. So there's all your mobile devices, based on FOSS kernels.
Most IoT devices are Linux, this includes most home and SOHO routers, and extends into most business grade routers.
Most switches are Linux, regardless of market segment.
Need a core OS for a cluster? Yep... Linux again! It's the basis for Azure, AWS, and GWS used to host VMs and container work loads.
Most web servers... yep... Linux again running Apache2 or NGINX.

The only thing Linux lacks is a large company to invest the time into it to create and manage the update process for users to make it as easy and seamless as Windows. So far the market hasn't chosen to support such an entity, and I suspect it never will until Microsoft really screws up Windows on the desktop. But even if they do... Microsoft's stake holders also own RedHat and Ubuntu... so...

 

[britechguy]

*Nix owns everything that isn't the desktop.

Also not a shock. *nix rules! When an open source OS of the power of Linux made its appearance, it was a certainty that it would make inroads all over the place.

But when it comes to the desktop, I think of it as akin to VHS versus BetaMax. Everyone said, technically, that BetaMax was superior but VHS got far more popular far more quickly and the inevitability of it holding the marketplace was sealed. Same with Windows. Everyone has bitched about how awful Microsoft is for decades (and I'd say they've radically improved since the early days of the PC) but there is not a single sign that there is anything they could do to drive away the user base (and, heaven knows, they've done enough that should have done just that, several times).

 

[phaZed]

Just a coincidence, but I just tried to do the v18 upgrade to the newest mint for a customer (Super rare!) like 5 days ago. It was a disaster! I ran into all the aforementioned issues the OP did - but I was fortunate enough to get approval to simply wipe it and reinstall.

From what I gathered, it is a problem between these particular versions - as I've really never had such difficulty upgrading different Linux distro's before (Including Mint). I've run a "Backtrack" linux box all the way up to current Kali over the years.. hardly an issue in the last decade!

Mint really screwed up between 18 and 21 somewhere.

 

[NviGate Systems]

The only thing Linux lacks is a large company to invest the time into it to create and manage the update process for users to make it as easy and seamless as Windows. So far the market hasn't chosen to support such an entity, and I suspect it never will until Microsoft really screws up Windows on the desktop. But even if they do... Microsoft's stake holders also own RedHat and Ubuntu... so...

And we all remember what happened when SCO who claimed everyone was in breach of code they owned sued everyone. I think Linux/Unix should stay in the shadows and be the unsung hero. I'm afraid if it ever did go mainstream they will just be another Apple or Microsoft. The world doesn't need more of those.

 

[backwoodsman]

Upgrading Linux is a lot less messy if you put /home on its own partition. Then you can nuke & pave the root partition, point the new user at /home/<user>, install any additional programs you need, and you're done.

 

[Diggs]

I'm afraid if it ever did go mainstream

How would it ever go mainstream with a N&P every five years? The average user can't do that. The Unbuntu process below would terrify them.

Because it's Ubuntu based, usually you can use Ubuntu's upgrade process on Mint: https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/upgrade-ubuntu-20-04-lts-to-22-04-lts/

Really? Opening and checking ports to upgrade a distro? Downgrading repositories? Upgrading over SSH? Jammy entries? Keep sshd config or not???? I thought I had a good handle on Linux but this little exercise in futility showed how clueless I really am.

 

[nlinecomputers]

People don’t generally upgrade ANY computer. They get a new Windows version when they buy a new PC. Only when tricked or fuly automatic do end users move to a new version.

 

[Diggs]

People don’t generally upgrade ANY computer. They get a new Windows version when they buy a new PC. Only when tricked or fuly automatic do end users move to a new version.

Yes, but those computers aren't obsolete in 5 years like the Linux world. Windows 10 will be 12 years old when it retires and many of those machines are ready to do the same. A five year old Linux machine still has good life in it yet.

 

[nlinecomputers]

A five year old Windows machine still has lots of life in it. But people don’t know how to upgrade and it is cheaper just to get a new machine. Windows has automated the process so well that people are keeping machines longer. It’s one reason why Windows 11 has an artificial hardware line. To force users to get new hardware.

 

[NviGate Systems]

Microsoft has over the years from Windows XP to 8/8.1 offered free upgrades so as to reduce "devaluation" of old stock when a new Windows edition launches, so there is a history of people upgrading. Plus MS used to sell retail Upgrades.

Linux on the other hand, is a bit complicated. It needs an intelligent person to hold its hand. It's very different from MS.

Over the years many companies from Dell to Walmart have toyed with computers with Linux. Based on anecdotal evidence, most of those machines ended having some form of Windows installed, usually pirated. Examples that come to mind are the Asus EEE line, Dell Notebooks with Ubuntu, I'm sure there are more, but those I personally had. Linux was trash, I installed Windows.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Really? Opening and checking ports to upgrade a distro? Downgrading repositories? Upgrading over SSH? Jammy entries? Keep sshd config or not????

None of which you need to do if you are upgrading sitting at your local bash prompt. This instructions are for remote upgrades, like a for a server. You can upgrade with the GUI.