Upgrading Linux is messy

[GTP]

I assume your talking about updating not an actual upgrade from one full release to another (v. 20 to 21 as an example).

I am talking about upgrading from one release to another.
I just this week upgraded from version 20.3 Una to version 21 Vanessa then to 21.1 Vera.
No issues whatsoever.

I had previously upgraded from Version 19 Tara to 20.3 Una without issue.

 

[Diggs]

Back when I started my upgrade path (I was/am a bit out of touch with the state of Linux) I had the feeling the Linux community had done so many other things right that the upgrade path should also be done right and not have to force a new install on every major release. Hence my upgrade journey.

 

[britechguy]

upgrade path should also be done right and not have to force a new install on every major release.

To my way of thinking, "forcing a new install on every major release," is the diametrical opposite of an upgrade path.

If you can't move, gracefully, between major versions while keeping everything you're familiar with, including your settings, programs, and data, you're not upgrading.

A "nuke and pave" of any sort is not an upgrade, but simply an OS change and starting with the new one from scratch.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Generally speaking, anything in the Debian tree of Linux can be upgraded easily. But there are some upgrades that are just a giant pain the rear, and it's easier to nuke and pave. They aren't every release, but they do happen. Debian 9 to 10 was one such situation. If the server was relatively simple, it was fine but many more complex installations just blew all sorts of chunks and I found it was just more reliable and cleaner to just roll a new server, copy the configs where necessary and move on.

Desktop environments are actually vastly more complex than server ones, so Mint having issues on upgrade isn't news to me. And I probably could have fixed the few issues I ran into, but I didn't bother to spend the time because my endpoints are disposable. Properly scripted installation means a fresh installation is back online in 2 hours. So if I can't putz it back into a working state in an hour or less, it's just not worth fixing anything anymore.

This applies to Windows as much as it does any Linux I've worked with.

 

[coffee]

I am talking about upgrading from one release to another.
I just this week upgraded from version 20.3 Una to version 21 Vanessa then to 21.1 Vera.
No issues whatsoever.

I had previously upgraded from Version 19 Tara to 20.3 Una without issue.

I think most of the problems I see posted in the Linux Mint forums for upgrades is because they have added PPA's and other software or the nvidia driver issues that some cards run into. I just make it a point on my systems to do a full backup and a full install when doing full upgrades.
Im glad to hear that things worked out for you. Thats great

 

[coffee]

To my way of thinking, "forcing a new install on every major release," is the diametrical opposite of an upgrade path.

If you can't move, gracefully, between major versions while keeping everything you're familiar with, including your settings, programs, and data, you're not upgrading.

A "nuke and pave" of any sort is not an upgrade, but simply an OS change and starting with the new one from scratch.

When dealing with linux its not such an issue I don't think as it is with MS. Backup you have a backup of the /etc directory, You backup the /home (or maybe you have it on a different array, no need then) and then wipe and reload. Load up what you need from the /etc and attach your /home directory (array) and then setup anything like Nextcloud and restore from a backup.

 

[britechguy]

When dealing with linux its not such an issue I don't think as it is with MS.

Which may be true, but everything you listed after this comment is a PITA when compared against a truly graceful in-place update/upgrade. Every Windows 7 & 8 to 10, and Windows 10 to 11 (on supported, and even my own unsupported hardware) was of a "run and done" nature, with nary a hitch afterward.

Back in the Win7 to 10 in-place upgrade days, I had one Asus laptop that would not upgrade and one other machine (I can't remember the details now) where it bombed, big time.

I just hate having to do all sort of gyrations, even simple ones, for an in-place OS upgrade these days. Microsoft has, in my opinion, done a fabulous job with making them dirt simple to perform and the resulting system being stable after having done so. In the MS world, with the exception of a machine with a really malicious infection (I don't trust those even if cleanup appears to be complete), the "nuke and pave" is the very last resort. Most people, myself included, spend years tweaking various settings and installing applications to get an ecosystem "perfectly suited" for ourselves. I hate, hate, hate having to start over again from scratch.

 

[coffee]

Which may be true, but everything you listed after this comment is a PITA when compared against a truly graceful in-place update/upgrade. Every Windows 7 & 8 to 10, and Windows 10 to 11 (on supported, and even my own unsupported hardware) was of a "run and done" nature, with nary a hitch afterward.

Back in the Win7 to 10 in-place upgrade days, I had one Asus laptop that would not upgrade and one other machine (I can't remember the details now) where it bombed, big time.

I just hate having to do all sort of gyrations, even simple ones, for an in-place OS upgrade these days. Microsoft has, in my opinion, done a fabulous job with making them dirt simple to perform and the resulting system being stable after having done so. In the MS world, with the exception of a machine with a really malicious infection (I don't trust those even if cleanup appears to be complete), the "nuke and pave" is the very last resort. Most people, myself included, spend years tweaking various settings and installing applications to get an ecosystem "perfectly suited" for ourselves. I hate, hate, hate having to start over again from scratch.

I understand what you are saying - To you its extra work to do a full upgrade. Now, If I look at it from a personal computer perspective rather than a server, Mine goes like this:

Backup my .thunderbird directory and my .mozilla directory.
Then backup any files I want to save in my home directory.
Install over the old version of linux.
Install any other software I had before.
Restore my .thunderbird and .mozilla.
Copy my personal files over.
Done.

I guess the only difference is - I do not see this as difficult at all. To each their own I think is the way it goes.

I will point out though that I do not have to put up with the "Your system does not meet minimum requirements for windows 11".

 

[GTP]

I just make it a point on my systems to do a full backup

All my Linux machines have an attached 1TB ext drive, formatted with BTRFS that keeps 5 "TimeShift" backups taken daily on 2 boxes and weekly on the rest.
My cloud storage has unlimited storage/unlimited devices so those backups are also uploaded to it.

 

[GTP]

was of a "run and done" nature, with nary not a hitch afterward.

This is my experience on Linux.

 

[GTP]

Microsoft has, in my opinion, done a fabulous job with making them dirt simple to perform and the resulting system being stable after having done so.

Agreed. Until you hit the "Undoing changes" wall that gives no explanation.

 

[GTP]

I hate, hate, hate having to start over again from scratch.

 

[britechguy]

Agreed. Until you hit the "Undoing changes" wall that gives no explanation.

Absolutely. I think I've hit this one twice, but both times it was a "rend my garments" and scream situation!

 

[britechguy]

This is my experience on Linux.

Which I want to make clear I am not denying nor commenting upon. I just don't have enough experience with Linux (in general, and in-place upgrades in particular) to speak to this with any credibility while you do.

 

[Diggs]

Install any other software I had before.

This^ - I struggled with this when I shouldn't have to IMHO. After 5(?) years I couldn't find some software. I didn't remember which Conky desktop I was running. VPN was an issue to get up and running again, etc., etc. Way more hassles than expected once I decided I needed a fresh install...... Then again, had I known I was doing a fresh install from the beginning I may have taken a few more precautions like knowing which software I have doing what so that part of it is self-inflicted.

 

[coffee]

This^ - I struggled with this when I shouldn't have to IMHO. After 5(?) years I couldn't find some software. I didn't remember which Conky desktop I was running. VPN was an issue to get up and running again, etc., etc. Way more hassles than expected once I decided I needed a fresh install...... Then again, had I known I was doing a fresh install from the beginning I may have taken a few more precautions like knowing which software I have doing what so that part of it is self-inflicted.

I never really used Conky. I think their is a config file though for that. Probably in ~/.config or ~/conky. If you backup your home directory you can just go in and transfer it after just installing conky. As for VPN's , I use PIA and they have a nice software package I just install and add my credentials. What might help if your manually setting up your VPN is to take some screenshots of NetworkManager and just put them in a directory in your home directory.

 

[britechguy]

I never really used Conky. I think their is a config file though for that. Probably in ~/.config or ~/conky. If you backup your home directory you can just go in and transfer it after just installing conky. As for VPN's , I use PIA and they have a nice software package I just install and add my credentials. What might help if your manually setting up your VPN is to take some screenshots of NetworkManager and just put them in a directory in your home directory.

@coffee: But, again, this is all "hand work" that most modern OS upgrades completely eliminate.

That's the point.

I know how to do all of the sorts of things you mention but at this point in time, I don't think I should have to do them when everything is working as it should in the world of contemporary OSes.

The ability to upgrade gracefully, and with nothing more than granting permission for that upgrade to occur, has become a base requirement as far as I'm concerned. Not having it would constitute a deal breaker for me and I'm clearly far from alone in that opinion.

 

[GTP]

This^ - I struggled with this when I shouldn't have to IMHO. After 5(?) years I couldn't find some software. I didn't remember which Conky desktop I was running. VPN was an issue to get up and running again, etc., etc. Way more hassles than expected once I decided I needed a fresh install...... Then again, had I known I was doing a fresh install from the beginning I may have taken a few more precautions like knowing which software I have doing what so that part of it is self-inflicted.

You do know that Mint comes with a built in backup program called "Backup Tool" that allows you to backup .... well, your programs.

Conky desktop I was running.

I dont use Conky anymore but when I did I used TeeJee's Conky Program (dont remember the name now) but it was so simple to add your own Conky to the program or use one of the pre-installed ones.

I created my own Mint conky file that scrolled various info about Mint as well as the usual network, wifi, drive I/O etc. etc.

 

[Diggs]

You do know that Mint comes with a built in backup program called "Backup Tool" that allows you to backup .... well, your programs.

I use Timeshift but I didn't want to go back to what I had. Needed to get current.

As for VPN's , I use PIA

Even PIA gets funky depending what version you are running with which version of Mint. It's very specific it seems.

 

[GTP]

Timeshift...

TimeShift and Backup Tool are separate programs. I've used Backup Tool on the odd occasion.