Education Level

[trevm999]

I wouldn't say certifications are useless, you just have to manage your expectations of what they are communication.

If you look back above at Bloom's Taxonomy, non-practical certifications are trying to test for knowledge and comprehension. This is the foundation for application, but you can't assume someone is at the application level for a topic just based on having the certification. And if they never applied it, yeah, things will be forgotten faster. But, at some point everyone needs the foundation.

Practical certifications go further and get into the Application level. But it still isn't proof of critical thinking.

 

[britechguy]

I wouldn't say certifications are useless, you just have to manage your expectations of what they are communication.

While, strictly speaking, you're correct, from a "what I've observed in the real world over a course of decades" perspective, they are very close to useless because those seeking them have false beliefs about what it is that individuals who hold certain certifications can do. There are scads of people who collect said certifications so that they can string them after their names, but never once put any of the foundation knowledge to any real world use.

Job experience is a far better predictor as far as I'm concerned. And that experience need not even be in precisely what it is the employer is looking for. I don't think I ever got a job where I was "the perfect candidate" based on the list of desired skills, certifications, years of experience, etc., that a potential employer wanted. I doubt many employers ever get that, because the only way you could get it is if someone were quitting what is essentially exactly the same job, elsewhere, and making a lateral move to your shop instead. I have never known of anyone in the IT world to do just that, at least not willingly. Most job changes involve both financial gain as well as having a lot of "new territory" to cover rather than just SSDP (Place).

 

[trevm999]

While, strictly speaking, you're correct, from a "what I've observed in the real world over a course of decades" perspective, they are very close to useless because those seeking them have false beliefs about what it is that individuals who hold certain certifications can do. There are scads of people who collect said certifications so that they can string them after their names, but never once put any of the foundation knowledge to any real world use.

Job experience is a far better predictor as far as I'm concerned. And that experience need not even be in precisely what it is the employer is looking for. I don't think I ever got a job where I was "the perfect candidate" based on the list of desired skills, certifications, years of experience, etc., that a potential employer wanted. I doubt many employers ever get that, because the only way you could get it is if someone were quitting what is essentially exactly the same job, elsewhere, and making a lateral move to your shop instead. I have never known of anyone in the IT world to do just that, at least not willingly. Most job changes involve both financial gain as well as having a lot of "new territory" to cover rather than just SSDP (Place).

See, they have proven useful, showing you who you can ignore because they're putting the certs after their name

Yes, job experience is much better, I'm not sure if anyone would contest that. I see certifications as useful for pivoting to your next job. For example, if I wanted to start specializing in security, I would tailor my resume to highlight the security related stuff I've done in previous jobs, get a security certification or two, and then do some security related projects that I could show on my resume. The certs shows I have attempted to get a foundation of knowledge that I can build on.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Then things have taken a turn for the very worst since I was last hitting the street for a job. In all my experiences, IT and healthcare, the HR people (and I respect what they do) were strictly administrative in nature. Most of the "finding" materials related to any form of advertising and all of the interviewing and decision-making were in the hands of the managers of the projects/departments that were hiring.

HR really "handled all the paperwork" but generation of job descriptions and all interviewing and hiring decisions were not theirs to make.

This is still true, the problem is that paperwork includes managing the Applicant Tracking System (ATS), so you won't make it through the ATS without the certs and or degree to get to HR (Interview #1), much less to the department's manager (Interview #2).

And again the only reason I know this is I just lived through it. I was casually looking for work for over a year, and it was six months into that process before I realized my resume was horrible... and two revisions later it wasn't getting any better. I found jobscan.co, paid my $40 to use their tools to figure out how to game and keyword load my resume. I went from an interview every month or two, to three to four interviews a week in two weeks.

And a good portion of why was because I had the keywords to match all stuffed into the correct place.

So yeah, in the 20 year gap between my last attempt at finding gainful employment and now, things have changed A TON. Much of it for the worst I'm afraid.

 

[NviGate Systems]

I'll say it again: Most of these certificates are a money pit that companies use to create a walled garden. When you are granted these certs, very rarely do you get any practical experience. Some may, but for sure they do not teach you the important bit: Using your brain.

People can fail for many reasons in these certs, but often that failure isn't indicitive of whether a person can or can't do the job. Imagine if famous inventors like Edison and others had to be certified in whatever "the going mentality or idealogy" of the time was. We would never have made it thus far. The only reason there are options these days is because people used thier brains and invented things that defied the status quo.

In a way, I would feel far better if the IT Industry were to do things like woodworking or other trades where you had to slowly learn as an apprentice. Yes it brings some complications, but it would weed out so much. Fanciful wishes though.

 

[britechguy]

I found jobscan.co, paid my $40 to use their tools to figure out how to game and keyword load my resume.

Which is just plain sad, sad, sad (and that is NOT a cut at you).

Resume inflation, regardless of what it's called these days, is alive and well.

Having to game and keyword load any resume tells me that certain things really never change and, it seems, only get worse when non-human filtering of resumes is the norm.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

(Apologies for typos...type it in the sun without my eyeglasses on, while waiting for wife and daughter to finish packing)

Really no right or wrong answers here.

Does a college degree help a person in their life?
Do certifications help a person in life?

The answer can vary.

What career are you going for? What job do you want?
I did not take any medical courses in college. it would not make sense for me to apply for a nursing position.

When I decided to change my career from..."quest for the badge" (to get into law enforcement)...to computers, I did not have any formal computer training. Yeah way back in high school I took computer science, which involved learning BASIC on Apple I and II computers.
Early in college I took a class in Fortran and Watfive...quite a few steps backwards. Those were for mechanical engineering though.

So when I decided to change careers and get into computers, I had started "self taught" playing with computers...and answered the ad for a small software house that wrote and installed/supported their point of sale software for gift shops. Seaport Software! The job advertisement included the phrase "experience preferred but willing to train the right person". I got that job. I planned on doing it for about a year, to learn, and then start climbing in my career. Their software was based on Clipper for DOS, Windows 9x was new, and they built their computers and networks for clients based on Artisoft LANtastic for networking. I was fast self learning computers, within 9 months I got them to start dropping using LANtastic, that Windows built in networking was good itself.

One day at a bar with some friends, a friend of one of my buddies was at the bar and talking out loud about this nightmare job he had at a Days Inn hotel, with their computers. I heard him say "LANtastic" and also "PcAnywhere for DOS"..both of which I had a lot of experience with. He was the the manager of a local Computer Land franchise, and he was working overnights on this job and not getting far. I offered to help, which I did, and he asked me to interview with the owner of the Computer Land franchise, which I did, and I got that job. At the 1 year mark of working at SS...right on my target.

I worked under one of their main engineers at CL, he was a Microsoft certified this and that. I gained a ton of experience.
ComputerLand had me to COMP TIA training after just a couple of years. I went into the A+OS and A+ Core classes...feeling like I could teach them, but I did them, easy for me. I also did the Network+ class back then. The day of the exam I had a client911 and missed the test, never went back to do it again. To this day (over 25 years later probably 30 years later)...I still can't think of a single instance where knowing the OSI network model helped me. And I can spit out class C networks in my sleep, deeply aware of DHCP, DNS, dynamic IPs, static IPs, port forwarding, blah blah blah. Back then I was at the forefront of broadband routers and Microsoft Small Business Server, I built the first half of my career in converting businesses over from dial up and POP email, to broadband, routers, and Small Business Server with vanity email and remote access. All of this...self taught. Due to many of my articles across tech websites, and helping people in tech forums, Microsoft gave me MVP awards quite a few years in a row. All self taught, my own initiative, no formal training. I just devoured books on Small Business Server, like from Harry Brelsford (I'm still friends with him to this day). And I became staff at www.speedguide.net....friends with the owners of that website, which focused on broadband technology, tweaking Windows.

In my career I've come across some techs who are what I call "paper certs"....they studied at braindump sites to memorize tests and pass them. And then put them "in the real world" and they're clueless. So "I have certs"...doesn't always mean you're good at the job.

The world of IT is very fast changing. Education is usually...quite a few years behind "current" in what they teach. So it's hard to learn relevant current education in this field, unless you do lots of "micro training" and immerse yourself in this world.

However at the same time, I feel that a kid going through the college experience...living on campus...can help make out for a "more well rounded" person, I feel it's an important part of growing up and becoming a young adult. Socially, mentally, not just education wise. And I do say this on a more "general" aspect. I know individuals vary, some kids and mature into young adults quite well without a college experience. I'm just generalizing.

I don't have any IT-centric diploma from college, My "in the real world experience" can likely land me a good job if I picked up and relocated elsewhere on the planet. I would not have to break out my diploma from UCONN (Go Huskies!) nor would it be relevant...if I stuck with the IT career path.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Which is just plain sad, sad, sad (and that is NOT a cut at you).

Resume inflation, regardless of what it's called these days, is alive and well.

Having to game and keyword load any resume tells me that certain things really never change and, it seems, only get worse when non-human filtering of resumes is the norm.

Degree inflation happened with my generation, BS degrees are worth what the high school diploma used to be. And yes now the certificates go with it, along with targeted resumes full of absolute BS.

For my part, the tool helped me figure out how to construct a resume and gave me some ideas of what to put in it. It's really hard to look at a blank sheet of paper and go hmm... what in my nearly 30 years of work experience should I put on this thing? I'm an infrastructure engineer with a solid security background too. There isn't an org out there that can't use me, but I also don't really fit into a nice corporate box either.

So the way I figure it, my resume either makes me look like I'm padding into next week, or it makes me look like I'm overqualified. I've never been quite able to figure out the line between those two realities. I see this situation replicated with others I've assisted over time too. The market is indeed... very bad. There are PLENTY OF JOBS! It's just the hiring process to get to them is bonkers. There are more than a few jobs listing at absurdly low rates too, but that's not really a new problem.

In short, it's a mess!

 

[Mike McCall]

I started helping people with their computer systems in the early '90s. I never charged them as I was running another business and enjoyed helping them. I closed the company in late 2004 and started doing something decidedly non-technical. Nine years later I get hurt (chronic health issues) and can no longer work. Because I still wanted to work (I hadn't made the mental transition to disability yet), I thought I might do something I used to enjoy by helping people with their computers.

Through a State program, they would pay for my A+ and Network+ certifications with the goal of finding work. Previously, I highly regarded those certs purely based on ignorance. It wasn't long before I realized the shallowness of the material and how the learning process was cramming for the test. Still, if they were what I needed to get a toe-hold then that's what I would do. After completing them I immediately started shopping them around. The results were entirely predictable. Over the next few months, I applied for some 150 jobs. Not one call back.

I finally began to concede that even with these certifications I simply was unemployable. At my wife's prodding, and motivated by desperation and a lack of options, I decided to open my own company. That was in 2015. I used my certs in my marketing in the beginning but I saw no value in keeping them current and let them expire. To date, I have never used or been asked for any certs except on job descriptions.

I liken those certifications to documenting my graduation from kindergarten while the minimum job requirements are at the second or third-grade level. The gap is where the problem lies. "Recent verifiable experience." Entry-level job seekers by definition don't have that so they are sold certifications that don't bridge the gap.

 

[Metanis]

Why it's almost a conspiracy of the college educated to enforce that requirement throughout corporate enterprises. One more reason for exploding costs in higher education.

I was nearly 60 when I got my Associate degree in programming.

That's because US Naval Electronics training got my foot in the door back in the 1980's and I never looked back until I was suddenly unemployable in my late 50's without the degree. (I kept up with technology throughout my career!)

By the time I got the degree I was a one-man shop and no longer needed a corporate gig. Ageism is alive and well in the tech world. Working for myself became the only solution for me.

 

[britechguy]

Ageism is alive and well in the tech world.

Not that you're not correct, but you can take "tech" out and it's still true!

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

I'll add that, in the ~30 years of doing "MSP/IT for SMB"...with our current roster of ~150 small businesses we have for clients, I can count the amount of potential clients that asked for a list of our staffs "certifications" on one hand. Likely just around 2-3.

 

[britechguy]

I can count the amount of potential clients that asked for a list of our staffs "certifications" on one hand.

Which I find entirely believable, as most hire us because they don't, and admit they don't, understand what they're hiring us for. Knowing what any of those certifications mean is largely a non-starter.

I have found this entire discussion fascinating. It's done nothing but reinforce my opinion that these certifications, if they don't mean "nothing," are still such an unreliable way to "pick and choose" among techs as to be functionally useless. The few that I ever did have, way back when, required training that was really focused on "cramming for the exam" and not all that much more. There was little (not no, but little) attempt to illustrate and integrate how what was being taught was supposed to fit into "the big picture in the IT world out there." And if you don't get information that allows you to apply a skill and know when it should be applied, well . . .

 

[Mike McCall]

There was little (not no, but little) attempt to illustrate and integrate how what was being taught was supposed to fit into "the big picture in the IT world out there." And if you don't get information that allows you to apply a skill and know when it should be applied, well . . .

The State paid $2,500 for each of my certs including the tests. I would not have been able to pay that at the time. Since they aren't actually teaching the subject but merely cramming for the test, no real knowledge gets passed on. I would have been better off working for someone else than pursuing any certifications. However, without "recent verifiable experience" (recent previous employment in the industry), and because of my age, that would never happen. Perhaps if I was in my 20's a local shop might have been willing to make the investment, but those years are nothing but a distant memory. Of course, ageism isn't limited to IT.

 

[Computer Bloke]

I had rather a lot of industry certifications, paid for by my then-employer because their training budget was allocated on a use-it-or-lose-it basis and if it didn't get spent this year then there wouldn't be one next year.

We covered a whole wall in our client-facing office with the certificates for these, along with our "real" hard-won academic diplomas and a couple of lower-effort ones to fill in the gaps. We called it the Wall of Intimidation, and it really tied the room together.

The only one that ever impressed anyone was my Doctorate in Simplicity Theory from Abide University.

 

[DRPCNZ]

I'll say it bluntly, certifications are nice but useless. A person can study study study and pass every cert with flying colors and not have an ounce of talent for doing the job. You need to find the person that has a passion and drive to learn new things. Routine or book/etc based jobs are like drive through orders, a mundane job almost anyone can do.

Essentially you need someone with a logical, expanding, functional brain. No certification will provide that.

I totally agree. I have walls covered with certificates for courses that I have completed and past over the years. I keep telling everyone that they just mean, that I knew the answer they wanted to their questions. In some instances I went to them and said this is the answer you wanted and its WRONG and this is why its wrong. Their reply "Its the answer we feel is correct"

 

[Shaiboo8]

I can say that I don't have a technical education yet, because when I entered University I had a different plan for life. LOL

 

[brandonkick]

B.S. in Computer Science w minor in mathematics from University of Pittsburgh.
CompTIA SEC+ (501) certified

Just passed 9YOE as a full stack software engineer in May


What I've found in the technical world is three things:


How well do you perform. Can you do the job? "Ass time" as I call it is not an indication of skill, it's an indication of how long you've sat in a chair (been in your current position). I know lots of people who have been doing said job 20+ years and aren't as competent as some people out there with <5 YOE. Skill level is a measurement of skill level. It's actually a bit surprising how long some people have been doing things yet they aren't very good at it.

How teachable are you / willing to learn are you?

How are you in terms of being able to work with? Are you an expert at what you do, but an insufferable prick who's impossible to work with? Or are you someone who's generally positive and has a good attitude with an open mind?

 

[britechguy]

Are you an expert at what you do, but an insufferable prick who's impossible to work with?

It never ceases to amaze me how many managers seem to value expertise above all else and absolutely, positively refuse to acknowledge that lack of "soft skills"/"people skills" is very often a deal breaker.

As much as I hate the cliche, "He/She is not a team player," if that is, in actuality, true and he/she is insufferable, they're a liability, not an asset, no matter how sharp their IT skills are.

It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others.
~ John Andrew Holmes

Those who really "don't play well with others" are of very limited utility.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Not being a team player in IT is a hard game over too.

So much of what we do is a process, progressing to a goal post often so off in the distance we can't see it. If you're not capable of communicating correctly so that others can pick up the torch... very bad things happen. That's why I'm so vocal when I see people off course. It's making a huge mess for tomorrow to clean up that is expensive, bankruptcy inducing expensive!

This is one of the arguments that supports some sort of College degree though. Doesn't have to be IT related, you cannot earn a degree from an accredited institution without being exposed to other humans for a measured length of time. This process tends to develop those soft skills.

I know IT people are geekish sometimes, and heaven knows I'm about as subtle as a nuclear detonation most days but dang... I can't just let myself regress into the tape on glasses geek stereotype, no matter how much my natural tendencies can push me there. It never ends particularly well.

I'm going to have to remember the butt in seat time... Because that's also quite a thing. If you've been doing the exact same thing for two decades, you're probably not good at it. Tech moves, evolves, it's alive in many ways. If you're moving with the industry you're NOT stagnant.