Mac created WD Elements drive not readable by Windows

[britechguy]

This morning, I received a query from someone with an old Mac that wants to retrieve photos she saved to an external HDD. The point was made that, "The Mac has since aged to the point of no longer being eligible for updates and barely functions. In the meantime I am trying to access photos saved on a WD elements external drive and cannot get my HP laptop to open up the file. It recognizes it as a device but when I click on it nothing happens."

It has been ages since I dealt with "a Mac formatted drive" versus a Windows one. What I'm trying to recall is whether or not the above is a typical and classic sign that the drive should be sent for data recovery or not. I seem to recall that there was a time when the file system used by Mac was not readable by Windows, but I can't even be certain of that recollection. I know that you could purchase Mac formatted HDDs versus Windows formatted ones.

I know the cohort here can help me sort out the mental lint far more promptly, and correctly, than doing web searches would, so I'm asking.

 

[MudRock]

6 Ways to Read Mac-Formatted Drives on Windows

Learn how to read a Mac drive formatted with HFS+ or Apple File System (APFS) on Windows PCs.

www.makeuseof.com

HFS/HFS+/APFS and NTFS have been a bit of a fight between the two companies. No one wanted to licence the other's filesystems. Would have loved to have had them with a reciprocating agreement on this one sort of like x64/x86.

Edit: If just grabbing files, HFS File Explorer is fine. You may already have a tool in your collection that can open and mount it too.

You are correct; Microsoft still won't licence Apple's FSs.

Edit #2: Double check with a partition tool that you can see the partition FS type.

 

[Archon Prime]

Ya unless it was formatted as exFAT, they are SOL. But there are options to read the HFS volume by other means. as above. Depending on when this drive was formatted and how old the macOS version is, might have been HFS/HFS+ macOS 10.13 or later supports APFS for both bootable and data volumes, and that was 2017. Chances are it's not that file format.

 

[britechguy]

@MudRock & @McFarland IT ,

Thanks to you both, both for confirming that my recollection was correct and for pointing me to resources.

I suspect this drive will end up being HFS/HFS+ just based on the age comment, but have asked for details about what MacOS was running when this drive was initially put into use.

At least it's far less likely to be a dead drive issue than a need to employ the right software to get the thing to be readable, which is all that's wanted at this point.

 

[Markverhyden]

They're not SOL unless there's a problem with the hardware itself. That being said you do need to know what version of OS and if it has FileVault. If it has FV, full disk encryption, they have to decrypt the drive first. The good news is R-Studio can read all file formats. One of the data reco members, @lcoughey I think, said it'll also decrypt the drive. Pretty much any version of Linux will read Mac OS formatted drives but they will not automatically decrypt.
The down side of Apple's OS's is they create all these extra files which show up as hidden, .<filename>, which visible in most versions of Winderz. Which causes never ending confusion.

 

[Markverhyden]

6 Ways to Read Mac-Formatted Drives on Windows

Learn how to read a Mac drive formatted with HFS+ or Apple File System (APFS) on Windows PCs.

www.makeuseof.com

HFS/HFS+/APFS and NTFS have been a bit of a fight between the two companies. No one wanted to licence the other's filesystems. Would have loved to have had them with a reciprocating agreement on this one sort of like x64/x86.

Edit: If just grabbing files, HFS File Explorer is fine. You may already have a tool in your collection that can open and mount it too.

You are correct; Microsoft still won't licence Apple's FSs.

Edit #2: Double check with a partition tool that you can see the partition FS type.

Yes but there's plenty of open source projects out there that will get the job done.

 

[britechguy]

That being said you do need to know what version of OS and if it has FileVault.

And, unfortunately, the client is not certain. The statement is, "I think it's Snow Leopard." I have asked based on your addition to this discussion.

This is why I so deeply despise the insanity that has become the encryption craze. There's just no good reason for your personal backup HDD to be encrypted. It doesn't stay connected, it's constantly in your possession, the probablility of anyone other than yourself ever having even momentary access to it (other than folks you might intend to) is effectively zero.

That's one reason I turn things like BitLocker OFF for all home users and quite a few small businesses, too. It generally ends up making what would be a crisis that is relatively easy to fix when encryption is not involved into a nightmare.

 

[fincoder]

The data recovery program GetDataBack that runs on Windows also happily deals with Mac filesystems. So for repairers without a Mac this can be handy to copy files from a Mac disc to NTFS or exFAT.

 

[Markverhyden]

And, unfortunately, the client is not certain. The statement is, "I think it's Snow Leopard." I have asked based on your addition to this discussion.

This is why I so deeply despise the insanity that has become the encryption craze. There's just no good reason for your personal backup HDD to be encrypted. It doesn't stay connected, it's constantly in your possession, the probablility of anyone other than yourself ever having even momentary access to it (other than folks you might intend to) is effectively zero.

That's one reason I turn things like BitLocker OFF for all home users and quite a few small businesses, too. It generally ends up making what would be a crisis that is relatively easy to fix when encryption is not involved into a nightmare.

If you can get the serial from them you can go to https://everymac.com/ultimate-mac-lookup/ plug in the serial number and you'll get all the original specs, including OS version. If it is something as old as SL then it's almost guaranteed not to be encrypted. Unlike recent OS's where Apple prompts for enabling FV they did nothing back then to let the customer know about FV.

 

[Diggs]

It's been awhile but I thought I remembered my Linux machines reading Mac external drives and then allowing me to copy to a NTFS drive.

 

[britechguy]

@Markverhyden, thanks much for that info. I've asked about getting the serial number.

@Diggs, I don't doubt you're correct. One of the utilities (and Windows-based, so the name can throw you) that allows for the reading of HFS drives under Windows is Linux Reader.

 

[nlinecomputers]

If the MAC is still functional but slow could you not just buy another drive format it eFAT and then move everything via the mac. Slow but it would work? no?

 

[britechguy]

If the MAC is still functional but slow could you not just buy another drive format it eFAT and then move everything via the mac. Slow but it would work? no?

I don't know "how functional" the Mac is [and from what's been said, it sounds very minimally functional and it's been in attic storage for a couple of years] and would just prefer to avoid dealing with it at all.

I'm also trying to determine whether the client wants the drive to be fully usable afterward with her Windows machine. If so, my plan is to copy everything off to one of my spare drives, reformat (probably as exFAT), then copy everything back.

It actually seems quite simple to install the HFS drivers that are part of BootCamp to get read-only access, which is all that's needed for the "copy off" stage.

 

[timeshifter]

I'm also trying to determine whether the client wants the drive to be fully usable afterward with her Windows machine. If so, my plan is to copy everything off to one of my spare drives, reformat (probably as exFAT), then copy everything back.

If the drive is as old as it sounds I'd offer to get the client a new drive. 2TB external USB drives are only about $60. No way I'd want to work an old drive that hard (copying everything off, reformatting, copying a bunch of stuff back) then expecting it to reliably store data for even more years to come.

 

[phaZed]

6 Ways to Read Mac-Formatted Drives on Windows

Learn how to read a Mac drive formatted with HFS+ or Apple File System (APFS) on Windows PCs.

www.makeuseof.com

HFS/HFS+/APFS and NTFS have been a bit of a fight between the two companies. No one wanted to licence the other's filesystems. Would have loved to have had them with a reciprocating agreement on this one sort of like x64/x86.

Edit: If just grabbing files, HFS File Explorer is fine. You may already have a tool in your collection that can open and mount it too.

You are correct; Microsoft still won't licence Apple's FSs.

Edit #2: Double check with a partition tool that you can see the partition FS type.

Alright, you guys know I'm the stickler, lol. There has been no fight between the two companies. There has been a fight with Apple. (Surprise!).

First, Microsoft worked directly with Tuxera to create a GPL open-source NTFS driver known as NTFS-3G, for Linux (2006!).
Secondly, Microsoft has never (that we know of) sued or cried about IP or copyrights for NTFS... ever.

"Microsoft still won't license Apple's FS's" - Well, that's rich considering Apple won't license APFS, has been dragging their feet on documentation, etc.

Despite the ubiquity of APFS volumes in today's Macs and the format's 2016 introduction, third-party repair utilities continue to have notable limitations in supporting APFS volumes, due to Apple's delayed release of complete documentation. According to Alsoft, the maker of DiskWarrior, Apple's 2018 release of partial APFS format documentation has delayed the creation of a version of DiskWarrior that can safely rebuild APFS disks.

Apple File System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The current documentation from Apple does not include sufficient information to write a tool to defragment APFS volumes. The extent of the documentation on the subject so far is a feature flag labeled NX_FEATURE_DEFRAG which indicates whether an APFS container supports defragmentation.

Likewise, while the Volume Rebuild can repair many drives with volume structures problems, a full rebuild that reorganizes the volume structures can only be implemented once Apple provides further documentation.
It is important to note as well that Techtool Pro uses a low-level API to test, repair, rebuild, and defragment Mac OS Extended volumes. No such API yet exists for APFS, and it is unclear if Apple will make one available.

APFS support status - Micromat

It is understandable to conclude that Mojave, or Catalina support and APFS support would mean the same thing. However, the operating system and the file system are, in fact, distinct from one another. While the operating system serves as the ‘window’ for interacting with drives in many ways...

www.micromat.com

So, we literally have Microsoft on one hand that worked with a 3rd party to create an open-source GPL NTFS driver for their systems... while on the other hand, we have Apple that won't release even the bare-minimum in simply documentation, let alone release a driver of any sort, for any system, other than theirs...... and it's Microsoft's fault? C'mon...

Why doesn't Apple implement the freely available GPL NTFS driver made by Microsoft? I see who's the assh013 here, and it aint Microsoft.

 

[britechguy]

@phaZed

Quelle surprise! Apple has always been very secretive and the "walled garden" approach has only had the wall grow both higher and thicker as the years have progressed.

Microsoft has plenty it can be legitimately criticized about, but by comparison to Apple it's almost open source.

 

[Markverhyden]

Apple has been like this since the very beginning. Literally. In the dawn of the PC age IBM made a decision of not pursuing the companies cloning BIOS. Which is what allowed the Intel platform to grow so quickly compared to Apple. Apple on the other hand went after anyone they thought was impinging on their intellectual property. Even to the point of companies buying lots of broken equipment and making "new" ones from that.

 

[MudRock]

Thanks @phaZed for clearing it up

Oh, I know Apple don't do anything for anyone on that level. I know since beginning of MacOS, it has been difficult/impossible to really work with their filesystem external to a Mac, and even then, the tools are somewhat limited. I've done a bit of data recovery for HFS before. Its not a fun game, even with a Mac sitting on your desk.

You know, in the era of duopolies, monopolies and oligopolies, it is nice to see what competition can do, even if it also reveals the problems serious competition could do cause.

Apple has been like this since the very beginning. Literally. In the dawn of the PC age IBM made a decision of not pursuing the companies cloning BIOS. Which is what allowed the Intel platform to grow so quickly compared to Apple. Apple on the other hand went after anyone they thought was impinging on their intellectual property. Even to the point of companies buying lots of broken equipment and making "new" ones from that.

Hey, anyone remember the third party Apple computers? That was a good time. I should look to see if that actually helped Apple's marketshare or hindered.

Macintosh clone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[britechguy]

I know since beginning of MacOS, it has been difficult/impossible to really work with their filesystem external to a Mac, and even then, the tools are somewhat limited.

Now that I've tried to do a simple "copy it over" (not data recovery) and cannot get a single of the HFS under Windows tools to even see what's on the drive, that's an understatement!

The drive is gracefully recognized as a physical drive with it's make/model shown, but I've had zero success in reading content. I'm now checking around with people I know, including a local tech who sometimes posts on Technibble, who have Macs to see if anything is recognized when it is connected to a Mac.

I know one thing for sure, if I ever have to format an external drive for use on Windows, Mac, and Linux it will promptly be done as exFAT.

 

[Markverhyden]

Now that I've tried to do a simple "copy it over" (not data recovery) and cannot get a single of the HFS under Windows tools to even see what's on the drive, that's an understatement!

The drive is gracefully recognized as a physical drive with it's make/model shown, but I've had zero success in reading content. I'm now checking around with people I know, including a local tech who sometimes posts on Technibble, who have Macs to see if anything is recognized when it is connected to a Mac.

I know one thing for sure, if I ever have to format an external drive for use on Windows, Mac, and Linux it will promptly be done as exFAT.

If you still want to mess with it give r-studio a try. You can download and run it for free. If you can see stuff then just get the customer to buy the license and send you the license file.