Microsoft Announcement Office 2021

[Sky-Knight]

Oh no sir, I know exactly what I'm talking about and I know that you sir are selling snake oil.

Those tiny offices benifit the most from M365 services, because they no longer need to worry about backup or data integrity. The office applications generate data, that data is what matters not the apps that run it. And those tiny shops are precisely the little places that never invest correctly to protect themselves. And they go out of business by the buckets because they lost critical data when a machine blew.

Now you can sell them backup solutions, and charge them for all this crap, or you can just put them on M365 and stand back.

You may have customers stupid enough to continue to use disproven and outmoded methodologies, but that doesn't change the fact that you're doing them a disservice helping them remain ignorant.

The stuff Microsoft has in M365 is huge, expansive, and almost unknowable in depth and breadth. They're terrible as a company at educating people on what's possible in there. So your reality is completely understandable, but it is your job to fight that ignorance on your own. I've said my piece.

P.S. I have the same problem with anyone that thinks GSuite is comparable to M365 in any real way... because it flat isn't. And if you think it is, that's just further evidence of the ignorance I'm trying to point at.

 

[britechguy]

@Sky-Knight

As detatched from the realities I speak of as ever.

You can't sell people things they don't want, and you're stupid and lose customers if you try. I know my own customers as well as I suppose you do yours. I know what they have, and have not been willing to do.

You are in the thrall of M365. Not all of the world is, or ever will be, and you won't accept that. That's your problem, and I'm not about to make it mine. I've said my piece.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy Just because people don't want it, doesn't mean they don't need it.

I have plenty of customers that don't get it, that also doesn't mean I don't try. And every time a system fails, I get another M365 migration.

Old methods are exactly that. I can actually build a cloud for each SMB that wants it. The rub is... that COSTS MONEY, buckets more than they are willing to spend. And the worst part? *I* can do this, but most of my counter parts can't. So when I get hit by a bus where does that leave that business?

This is about continuity. And if you have a customer that doesn't care about their business's continuity, you have a customer that won't be in business long. They might last a decade or two, they may even make themselves a nice living doing it. But the wrong thing at the wrong time and they go under.

Not using M365 correctly, is like living without medical insurance. Yeah you can do it, but it's always stupid. And no I'm not in thrall to anything, in any other means than this is literally the only path forward that makes sense. If Microsoft had actual competition here, I'd be so much happier about it.

 

[nlinecomputers]

@Sky-Knight

As detatched from the realities I speak of as ever.

You can't sell people things they don't want, and you're stupid and lose customers if you try. I know my own customers as well as I suppose you do yours. I know what they have, and have not been willing to do.

You are in the thrall of M365. Not all of the world is, or ever will be, and you won't accept that. That's your problem, and I'm not about to make it mine. I've said my piece.

With respect. I do it all the time. It's called good sales technique and education of the prospect. They don't buy from you like that because YOU don't see Office 365/Microsoft 365 as anything more than Word and Excel. Even in small offices, it is useful. Covid made it EVEN more useful as my clients could offer Office "Free" to the now suddenly homebound workers. So they had one on the desktop computer in the office and another on the PC at home all connected together with Teams/Sharepoint/OneDrive for collaboration.

 

[britechguy]

With respect. I do it all the time. It's called good sales technique and education of the prospect. They don't buy from you like that because YOU don't see Office 365/Microsoft 365 as anything more than Word and Excel.

I firmly believe that client education is a core part of what we do.

I also know that clients can and do often make choices that I wouldn't, and so long as it's an informed choice, that's OK. When someone tells me, "I don't need features X, Y, or Z, and I don't want 'em, either," it is not my place to argue.

If Microsoft did not see those who want good, old-fashioned, standalone Office without all the M365 frippery (which isn't to say it's not great stuff, but it's not to those customers) we would not have this very topic. Microsoft is very well known for "forcing" users to adapt to what they wish to produce, and only that, whenever they can. If there weren't a business case for Office 2021, you can be certain that Microsoft would not be producing it. There are clients, and they're mostly residential and very small business, who are never going to go to M365, ever, no matter who presents the option, or when, so long as they have the option for something approximating exactly what they want which is a good, old-fashioned Office suite.

But I'll also admit that I don't sell M365 because:

a) I am not in software sales.

b) I have no desire to have it, myself.

c) Most of my client base does not even understand the "bells and whistles" already available to them, and are not inclined to listen long when you start talking about more. When you see that, if you're smart, you stop.

I do not, and never will, think that M365 is The One, True Way, and that's the vibe its strongest proponents in these discussions give off. There are other ways, and people choose 'em for their own reasons, even if they've been informed of the alternatives. And they're not going to disappear from the face of this earth, either as individuals or small businesses, if they decide to go another way (and some of those other ways are blatantly stupid, but it's not my job to protect people from their own stupidity after they've made clear they're not interested).

 

[Sky-Knight]

M365 frippery... that says it all right there.

You don't have a clue what M365 is, so you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and humming really loudly. And because of that, you're blind to the massive game changing ecosystem it represents.

It's not a product, it's more like a Cosco Membership to a new ecosystem of tools to run every business technically perfectly in a standardized way that affords users the freedom to change vendors when required.

I don't like that M365 is "the one true way", but yet it is. There is NO ALTERNATIVE that competes with it. Every major organization I know of that has tried other things, has moved to M365. Teams has an over 90% adoption rate among fortune 100 companies and greater. So to the SMBs out there I have a simple message... adapt or be left behind. The market has spoken. The SMBs that use M365 I support enjoy greater flexibility of operations. This flexibility has directly translated into huge benefits especially during a pandemic.

It's such a huge ecosystem, and it's so powerful I'm left dumbfounded as to why Microsoft hasn't just abandoned Windows 10 Home, and released Windows 10 Pro for "free". If they did the "free" thing with Home, and charged something stupid for a Pro upgrade, it would still be better. The OS is no longer a product of its own, it's just a loss leader to sell M365 services. That isn't to say you can't use Windows 10 without M365, but it is to say it's designed to be used with it, and when you don't use it you're frankly doing things the hard way.

And home users? That OneDrive integration is all but perfect. No more lost wedding photos... EVER AGAIN. Unless the service itself blows up, but there are 3rd party products to address that too.

 

[Philippe]

Microsoft is very well known for "forcing" users to adapt to what they wish to produce, and only that, whenever they can.

100% pure MS policy. The wrong way to do business, but they persist.

There are clients, and they're mostly residential and very small business, who are never going to go to M365, ever

Same here. No residential (in my area) will pay a monthly tax to write letters. And as very small business owner, I will never ever pay a monthly fee to use a text processing software. I'd better buy a writing machine typewriter!

That OneDrive integration is all but perfect. No more lost wedding photos.

Most of my residential customers don't even know what OneDrive is. And when I told them their files are on the Internet, they all have the same request: remove it...
Btw, I had 2 cases of cloud storage over slow internet last week which made the computers unusable... Not everyone has super high-speed, always available Internet access...

Edit: spelling.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@Philippe Considering that an LTE connection is fast enough to keep Onedrive happy on my mobile phone, I'm honestly shocked you're having issues on any sort of available modern bandwidth. I've used Onedrive over 3G as well, and it's fine there too.

Also, fear of the cloud is due to a lack of education, that too can be solved. I start with facility fires as an example. Are you OK with all your stuff going away if the house burns down? If they answer yes, I'll do the on-premise stuff, and know that when the house catches on fire I'm fired. (Because it's ALWAYS our fault when data is lost) If the answer is no, then I ask them just exactly where in the cloud do they want their stuff? Because there is nothing else to be done. It's either on my stuff, or Microsoft's stuff, or Amazon's stuff, those are your choices.

 

[britechguy]

[Forcing users to whatever they deign to offer] 100% pure MS policy. The wrong way to do business, but they persist.

And you can be 100% certain that the decision to release an installable Office 2021 did not arise out of the goodness of Microsoft's heart. It grew out of the recognition that M365 is not going to be accepted as they'd presumed, and there's a big chunk of market share they're going to lose if they don't have a standalone, installable, not cloud-based and monthly-billed Office suite option.

Contrary to the repeated assertions of several here, M365 is not only not wanted, but indeed not needed, by a very large number of very long term users of Microsoft Office. And you can be certain that Microsoft has been getting blowback from same.

The hubris shown by someone who could say, with a straight face, "Just because people don't want it, doesn't mean they don't need it," is just off the charts. And such deserves the instant dismissal it gets. You don't know better than your clients what they need, and if you think you do, you're in for a very rude awakening from some of them when they tell you so.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy So... you're an anti-vaxer now... got it.

 

[britechguy]

Er, no. But please do continue with apples and kiwi fruit (oranges are too close) comparisons that have no validity. It's right up there with believing in the context of a client making a clear statement about what they need that you definitely know better, and has equal weight.

 

[nlinecomputers]

And lots of people do stupid stuff. Most people would not have auto or home owners insurance if lenders and various government agencies didn't mandate it. Off-site backups are a hard sell to many people because of the unrealistic and irrational belief that "it will never happen to me".

I've still got a couple of clients that still heavily rely on fax machines. Despite the fact that it's labor intensive and wastes paper, when both sides of the conversation have email. Yes to a point the client is always right but that doesn't make it is any less inefficient and wasteful. And my job is to try to provide solutions to improve productivity.

 

[britechguy]

And my job is to try to provide solutions to improve productivity.

No argument. Your job also entails taking, "No," for an answer.

I don't, and should never, get to dictate to a client what they will or will not do. That's not what I'm generally hired for. If they ask, and sometimes even if they don't, I suggest and educate. But if they tell me afterward, "No, I don't want {insert whatever thing or plan of action}," then the issue is settled.

And I also accept that there can be a lot of things about their specific circumstances that I do not know. They know much better than I do about how they run their lives, homes, and offices because they have a full picture that I never will.

 

[nlinecomputers]

And I note that both @Philippe and @britechguy have both harped about Word and Excel and completely missed the point about collaboration and data management. Microsoft 365 is more about Teams than Word or Excel. And I note that both of you are aimed at residential clients not SMB. All the versions of office even the stand alone are NOT aimed at such clients. There are plenty of free options for that market segment and Microsoft could not give a rats ass about them. Office 2021 is aimed at enterprise clients who are running some LOB app that requires a stable LT build. That is not your clients.

 

[britechguy]

Yes to a point the client is always right

And I'll agree with this, too, because you've included, "to a point." But I am on record long before now of having said that the customer is absolutely, positively NOT always right in the literal sense. But, they know what they want, and to the extent that it does not compromise me to supply what they want, that's what I'll do.

I have walked away from certain clients where it was clear to me that, "no good can come from this."

 

[britechguy]

Microsoft 365 is more about Teams than Word or Excel.

And what on earth do most home users or two person offices need with Teams?!

You and the others who harp on about all the marvelous features, and they are marvelous, of M365 will not accept that they are dead weight to those who do not need them. And there are a very great many who don't, and you all refuse - adamantly refuse - to acknowledge that. I do not refuse to acknowledge that M365 is an absolutely fantastic tool, when the tasks require its capabilities.

When the tasks don't, then everything that a given user does not want or need is exactly what I've said earlier: frippery.

 

[britechguy]

All the versions of office even the stand alone are NOT aimed at such clients. [residential]

Indeed, but MS was very, very successful in getting Office, in all its various guises, to be the de facto standard Office Suite.

People like to keep what they're used to. And even I will give Microsoft props for, over time, even as hundreds of additional features, bells, and whistles have been added to Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc., keeping them such that those already familiar with using them can keep using the newer versions without much need of learning anything new. And they have.

 

[nlinecomputers]

And what on earth do most home users or two person offices need with Teams?!

You and the others who harp on about all the marvelous features, and they are marvelous, of M365 will not accept that they are dead weight to those who do not need them. And there are a very great many who don't, and you all refuse - adamantly refuse - to acknowledge that. I do not refuse to acknowledge that M365 is an absolutely fantastic tool, when the tasks require its capabilities.

When the tasks don't, then everything that a given user does not want or need is exactly what I've said earlier: frippery.

Dude, read my entire reply.

All the versions of office even the stand alone are NOT aimed at such clients. There are plenty of free options for that market segment and Microsoft could not give a rats ass about them.

Also you do realize that a client has there own vendors and customers who also can use Teams? This past year with clients working from home has made this radically apparent. One of my clients is a two person law office that LIVES on Teams and Zoom.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy You know, it's amazing because the Home and Family plans for M365 don't include Teams. It's almost as if Microsoft knows those tools are worthless to the home user.

The only cloud feature M365 home plans grant, is Onedrive. Because always on off site file sync is not only essential for protecting yourself from disasters such as facility fires, is also amazingly convenient. It can do little things like download all the pictures off your phone automatically when you get home. And that's just one example of a simple yet significant quality of life impact you can have using any of these services.

Dropbox for 1 user is $10 / month.
Dropbox for 6 users is $20 / month.

M365 for 1 user is $5.83 / month.
M365 for 6 users is $8.33 / month.

Now that's not entirely apples to apples, because Dropbox is 2tb of space at those prices, whereas Onedrive included with M365 is only 1tb. But the latter integrates seamlessly with Windows, Android, iOS, and OSX. This results in a better user experience.

Also, the anti-vaxer stab was abolutely fair. Because you either accept that we are experts in this subject matter and know better than our customers because we're IT professionals... OR... the client is always right based on some fringe Google stupidity. The things you're saying here very much are the same logical arguments used by anti-vaxers.

All that being said, since none of us here can actually make any money selling the residential plans for M365, we're very much financially incentivized to NOT push any of this stuff. After all, we get paid when it breaks in that particular market segment. But you know those clients you tell to take a hike? Those clients for me include any more sobbing women that just lost their wedding photos. I don't have the emotional space left to deal with that crap, it's 2021, get some cloud storage with a rollback feature and learn to use it already.

Oh and one last thing... The home users' Teams client is called Skype... so yeah, they do have Teams... sort of.

 

[britechguy]

Because you either accept that we are experts in this subject matter and know better than our customers because we're IT professionals...

Broadly, I accept that. I do not accept what you're pushing, it's that simple. You are, as I said earlier, in the thrall of M365. It's all you push. It is not the correct, nor desired, tool for a great many users. And I don't think that you could even force that immediately previous sentence from your lips.

I, on the other hand, can and do understand that, for certain people, in certain contexts [which, by the way, are many], M365 is an excellent fit.

I don't need cheap shots to make my point. I can also accept that just because I think something best, it may not actually be best, because there are things I do not know.