Pirates Suck

[vdub12]

Ok heres the deal.

I finaly talked to someone at MS that knew what I was talking about.

All you need is a valid windows key. It does not mater if that key has already been activated. Once you install XP you call the activation team and they will give you a new unactivated key per the windows 7 downgrade rights.

Also the windows 7 license that you use to downgrade is still good. the customer can use the windows 7 license on another computer or a future computer.

The windows 7 license has to be for pro or ultimate and has to be an OEM copy. Retail copy's do not have downgrade rights.

 

[14049752]

Also the windows 7 license that you use to downgrade is still good. the customer can use the windows 7 license on another computer or a future computer.

That is not at all true. If it's an OEM copy, it's tied to the computer that you use the downgrade rights on. You CAN install it and use the Windows 7 key on another system, but that is NOT how it's licensed.


http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/what_to_do_downgrade_rights.aspx

 

[vdub12]

That is not at all true. If it's an OEM copy, it's tied to the computer that you use the downgrade rights on. You CAN install it and use the Windows 7 key on another system, but that is NOT how it's licensed.


http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/what_to_do_downgrade_rights.aspx

That came right from MS. Also read this page
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/what_to_do_downgrade_rights.aspx

From Link above.
Q. What are the end-user benefits of downgrade rights?

A. With downgrade rights end users are allowed to acquire Windows 7 or Windows Vista, but continue to use Windows Vista or Windows XP Professional respectively until they are ready to upgrade. When they are ready for Windows 7 or Windows Vista, they already have the license.

Talking on the phone with MS they specifically told me the windows 7 license can be installed on another computer.

 

[14049752]

Microsoft's rep is wrong. I don't care.

The license is for ONE computer. It's tied to that computer, XP or Vista or 7...which ever OS you use, you only bought ONE license for ONE computer. And as we all know, OEM licenses are tied to the system they're installed on.


The wording you bolded means nothing.

Look at it again:

With downgrade rights end users are allowed to acquire Windows 7 or Windows Vista, but continue to use Windows Vista or Windows XP Professional respectively until they are ready to upgrade. When they are ready for Windows 7 or Windows Vista, they already have the license.

All it says is that "when they are ready" they have the license. It doesn't say anything about running it on another computer or a new computer. It's just implying that when they are ready to upgrade, they have the license...literally.

And from the page you linked to:

The software may not be installed on any other computer system than the one which was downgraded under this right.

See?

 

[vdub12]

One of the problems with Microsoft's licensing is that it is so confusing.

My specific question to the MS rep was when the customer is ready to upgrade there computer to one with the hardware that can support Windows 7 can they use the license they already purchased. There answer was yes.

They told me that the upgrade rights are a different license that I would get from the activation team and the original license can be used on another computer.

I think MS needs to be more clear on there licensing so we know what we can and can't do. There licenses are always contradictory. Then they have reps saying one thing and others saying something else.

The fact is the OEM system builder license itself is contradictory. MS themselves told me that I have to use an OEM system builders copy in order to get downgrade rights but according the the OEM system builders license it has to be installed on a new PC. It also says it can be purchase with just hardware. But I am told be MS that it can be installed on an old PC or a new PC and the XP and 7 licenses are separate and the downgrade rights gives the customer the opportunity to reuse the Windows 7 license.

The whole thing is confusing and its no wonder it took an hour and a half to find someone at MS that could explain it. This is probably why so many people say screw it and just install a pirated version in the first place.

 

[14049752]

One of the problems with Microsoft's licensing is that it is so confusing.

Yeah, I completely agree...it is.

I'll be honest, there are parts of it that I ignore. Legally, we're not supposed to use anything but manufacturer provided media to reinstall on a Dell (for example), but I use my OEM copies and activate with the key. Technically not allowed, but I think it's one of those things that Microsoft isn't so strict that they'd bother to enforce it.
Same with Technet media, technically not allowed to use it to reinstall for a customer.

This is probably why so many people say screw it and just install a pirated version in the first place.

I disagree on this. I think that most people install pirated copies because of the cost. It'd still be pirated if it were $10 instead of $100-200. That's just how some people are.
My general rule is that if there is a COA, and it activates, it's ok with me.
The downgrade rights are a little confusing, but I don't think they're THAT confusing.


I think you should call that MS rep back and show him the links above.

 

[Cybjun]

Downgrade rights are so simple I dont see what its confusing. The CoA use purchase is for that specific system. Even though you are using XP and a different key for the OS the Windows 7 Professional Key is still tied to that machine. which means when its motherboard dies the key dies, except for MFG approved replacements which translates to me as if I built the PC or if its a custom Built PC any replacement motherboard is acceptable.

Not acceptable
1.) using the downgrade rights on one PC then using the Win7 Pro CoA key to load windows 7 on a different machine.

2.) install any pirated software what-so-ever for any reason.

Also when people complain about the cost of windows I usually use this as an example

Windows XP released in August of 2001. Will be supported until 2014 (even though its limited support) 13 years of support, Meaning updates, patches, and new features. my average selling price of XP home OEM $139.95 devided by 13 years breaks down to $10.77 per year of support. Thats not that unreasonable to me.

 

[vdub12]

Well no mater how the license works, the use of the Windows 7 license after the fact is not my concern. I just need a way to provide a genuine copy of Windows XP on a customers system.

The way I would do it before is I would use the Microsoft's key changer to change the windows COA to a genuine COA from an OEM copy of Windows XP pro. That way even though the customer has a pirated version of Windows XP he does not have to reload his OS all that needs to be done is change the COA to something genuine. I would never even open the plastic other then to take the COA out and stick it to the computer case.

 

[NeutronTech]

How did it take until page 2 for someone to bring up Downgrade Rights? It was my first solution just get legit with Windows 7 Pro and use the downgrade rights to run Windows XP Pro. My after thought was is there no COA on these computer cases giving you a valid legit code to use with the proper version of Windows?

This only works if the PC came loaded with Windows 7 Pro, or Ultimate. You can't just buy a copy of Win7 then install XP using downgrade rights.

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/downgrade_rights.aspx

 

[vdub12]

This only works if the PC came loaded with Windows 7 Pro, or Ultimate. You can't just buy a copy of Win7 then install XP using downgrade rights.

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/downgrade_rights.aspx

You see there is to much confusion on this subject. All I want to do is get my customers that have non genuine copy's genuine and make a little money. I will be damed if I am going to continue to loose money by sending customers to Dell for a new computer because XP is no longer available.

Dell does not pay me to send them customers so why should my only recommendation be buy a new computer because your computer will not run Windows 7.

I think the downgrade rights is a good alternative. Microsoft gets paid and I get paid and the customer gets a genuine operating system. Everyones happy, except Dell.

 

[Dark]

Start by filing a complaint with eBay and both sellers and demand your money back. Threatening to call the authorities might help your cause here. Then leave bad feedback about them on eBay. If you paid through Paypal you can try to get your money back through Paypal. Wait till after you get your money THEN go ahead and report them to the proper authorities even if you said, 'Give me my money or I'm gonna call the law.' and they do return your money go ahead and report them. They lied to you so why not return the favor.
Your customers computers should have valid windows keys somewhere on the case. Use your disk and their key to install the os. If your disk and their keys are different versions then go ahead and download the correct version from the net. Good luck finding legit dl's from MS. If you do then please send me the links.
You can find torrents of most OS versions if you look hard enough. Remember it's the keys not the software that MS is selling. They don't care where you get the genuine software as long as you pay for the keys. Look for the ones that say they don't come with a key (or look in the comments left by other people who downloaded it for complaints that it doesn't come with a key). Scan it THOROUGHLY with AV software. Some may not come with a key but may have a keygen program. You can most likely use the software and the customer key and just delete the keygen.
I am very interested in finding legit sources to download the various versions of vista and 7 without keys so if any has a link it would be much appreciated. (some kind soul hooked me up with an 'all xp' version disk that I've yet to try)

Trying to 'downgrade' to a non-legit copy of windows is, in my opinion, a foolish waste of time.

This is apparently a very tender subject with some and I fully expect to get slammed for my thoughts on it.

 

[NeutronTech]

You see there is to much confusion on this subject. All I want to do is get my customers that have non genuine copy's genuine and make a little money. I will be damed if I am going to continue to loose money by sending customers to Dell for a new computer because XP is no longer available.

Dell does not pay me to send them customers so why should my only recommendation be buy a new computer because your computer will not run Windows 7.

I think the downgrade rights is a good alternative. Microsoft gets paid and I get paid and the customer gets a genuine operating system. Everyones happy, except Dell.

I agree. Seems like our hands are tied because of licensing that is way to restrictive. I personally don't believe there should be so many different licensing for Windows. What does it really matter if it is OEM or Retail? Why can't it just be the same thing? I mean, OEM is cheaper I know, but the manufacturers buy such a huge bulk of them why can't they get retail for the same price? So basically only one type of Windows license. The more you buy, the better deal you get. What is so hard about that? Then there wouldn't be so much confusion about what you can and can't do.

Somehow I think it all boils down to money. If they restrict, then they can force you to buy the same thing again and double their money

 

[NeutronTech]

I am very interested in finding legit sources to download the various versions of vista and 7 without keys so if any has a link it would be much appreciated. (some kind soul hooked me up with an 'all xp' version disk that I've yet to try)

The Vista Retail Edition has all the versions already on it. You enter your cd key and it installs the proper version. You'll have to get both the 32 and 64 bit cds though. I think it is missing the Ultimate too.

As far as Windows7, I just made my own. You have to download the WAIK from MS first, though. You can put all the versions (except Ultimate) including both 32 and 64 bit editions on one disc. Again, you will need a windows7 (any version) disc of each 32 and 64 bit. Also I think there are some Retail versions floating around that are all in one, but I'm not sure about it.

 

[vdub12]

I agree. Seems like our hands are tied because of licensing that is way to restrictive. I personally don't believe there should be so many different licensing for Windows. What does it really matter if it is OEM or Retail? Why can't it just be the same thing? I mean, OEM is cheaper I know, but the manufacturers buy such a huge bulk of them why can't they get retail for the same price? So basically only one type of Windows license. The more you buy, the better deal you get. What is so hard about that? Then there wouldn't be so much confusion about what you can and can't do.

Somehow I think it all boils down to money. If they restrict, then they can force you to buy the same thing again and double their money

I talked to a guy years ago when XP first came out. He did buying for Dell and he told me Dell spends $12 for a genuine Windows license. This is why big OEM's can crush people like us on price and still make a killing when we have to pay $150+ on a genuine Windows license.

If problems like this continue I may just get back in to system building. However, I got out of it because to keep my prices low I had to work for chicken feed and then still warranty the system. All while my prices where still $100 higher then Dell and there computers came with a free flat screen monitor.

 

[Martyn]

I am very interested in finding legit sources to download the various versions of vista and 7 without keys so if any has a link it would be much appreciated. (some kind soul hooked me up with an 'all xp' version disk that I've yet to try)

Join Technet and get the downloads.

 

[Cybjun]

Normally I dont pick apart posts but I had to respond to this

Your customers computers should have valid windows keys somewhere on the case. Use your disk and their key to install the os. If your disk and their keys are different versions then go ahead and download the correct version from the net. Good luck finding legit dl's from MS. If you do then please send me the links. .

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/salesmarketing/media/pages/default.aspx

or with a technet or actionpack suscription you can get legal ISO images however they dont aways work with OEM keys.

You can find torrents of most OS versions if you look hard enough. Remember it's the keys not the software that MS is selling. They don't care where you get the genuine software as long as you pay for the keys. Look for the ones that say they don't come with a key (or look in the comments left by other people who downloaded it for complaints that it doesn't come with a key). Scan it THOROUGHLY with AV software. Some may not come with a key but may have a keygen program. You can most likely use the software and the customer key and just delete the keygen.
I am very interested in finding legit sources to download the various versions of vista and 7 without keys so if any has a link it would be much appreciated. (some kind soul hooked me up with an 'all xp' version disk that I've yet to try)

this is not only wrong but illegal, technically when downloading a torrent your distributing it too, A downloaded ISO is usually modified corporate licensing with deep level virus/rootkits and malware. a good AV cant always detect it. A professional should never turn to torrents or illegal downloads for fixes

Trying to 'downgrade' to a non-legit copy of windows is, in my opinion, a foolish waste of time.

Apparently the only truly legal solution (with microsoft software) is a foolish waste of time.

EDIT: 10+ years and I've never once used a torrented download to fix a clients computer and for the life of me can not come up with a reason why I would need to.

 

[vdub12]

this is not only wrong but illegal, technically when downloading a torrent your distributing it too, A downloaded ISO is usually modified corporate licensing with deep level virus/rootkits and malware. a good AV cant always detect it. A professional should never turn to torrents or illegal downloads for fixes

If you are a professional you know what to download and what not to.

You also know to check the MD5 on OEM iso's to make sure you have a legit copy.

Theres nothing wrong with using a downloaded image with a genuine key. Torrent or not.

 

[NeutronTech]

If you are a professional you know what to download and what not to.

You also know to check the MD5 on OEM iso's to make sure you have a legit copy.

Theres nothing wrong with using a downloaded image with a genuine key. Torrent or not.

I know this is a gray area but I really have to agree. I have downloaded torrents several times and always check the hash. If it fails I won't even attempt to see if it works. I also believe that downloading an iso to install windows using the customer's key is no different than using your own copy to do the same. Both scenarios involve using a media that doesn't belong to the customer. Even Microsoft allows for Windows to be installed with media not belonging to the customer, so why does it matter where that media comes from as long as it is the same version and license as the one tied to the customer's key.

 

[Dark]

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/salesmarketing/media/pages/default.aspx

or with a technet or actionpack suscription you can get legal ISO images however they dont aways work with OEM keys.

Thank you for the link. The technet subscription is an excellent suggestion for many reasons and as soon as money and time allow I will get it. Thank you.

 

[vdub12]

I know this is a gray area but I really have to agree. I have downloaded torrents several times and always check the hash. If it fails I won't even attempt to see if it works. I also believe that downloading an iso to install windows using the customer's key is no different than using your own copy to do the same. Both scenarios involve using a media that doesn't belong to the customer. Even Microsoft allows for Windows to be installed with media not belonging to the customer, so why does it matter where that media comes from as long as it is the same version and license as the one tied to the customer's key.

Sometimes I will also just test the install on a VM. A good example is I downloaded a slipstream of XP Pro SP3 with all recent updates. This is obviously not going to have a correct hash. However, I loaded it on a VM and am testing how well it runs and making sure its clean.

On this one I am unsure yet if I am going to use it to load a customers machine with but I may make my own. Its nice to load windows and not have to run windows update.