Wifi Mesh question

[Haole Boy]

Aloha everyone. I'm not a networking guru, so I'd appreciate some feedback from the group here.

Customer called wanting to get wifi in the upstairs at her house. Current router is Netgear AC1600, which is located on the bottom floor at one end of the house. Guest and master bedrooms (where she wants the wifi signals) are upstairs at middle and other end of house. Little to no signal in those rooms. We tried this a few months ago with a range extender, and it did not improve the wifi signal upstairs. In fact, the only place I could find to place the range extender was too far from the Netgear to get a good signal. So, I'm a little hesitant to recommend a 'mesh' system, but it sounds like it's designed for this type of situation.

A Google Nest setup looks good (any feedback on if there are better mesh systems?). But, how do I determine how many nodes to buy? A 3 pack (router plus 2 nodes) is $289 at BestBuy. But a 3 pack might be overkill. Router plus 1 node is $199 - but if I need to buy a 3rd node, it's another $149 (total $348). So do I just get the 3 pack and enjoy the overkill if I really don't need 3 nodes?

Also, any way to determine where to put the nodes other than trial and error?

Mahalo,

Harry Z

 

[CaliZ]

Hi Harry,

There are going to be a bunch of different solutions as with anything. The one determining factor is cost. What have they allowed for?

We have tried a variety of "mesh" consumer devices (Linksys Velop, Google Nest, TP-Link Deco) and if you are not hard wiring to each node, they are utterly useless at this level of hardware. You will always be at minimum 50% loss of bandwidth right off the top, with the uplink only as strong as the signal it is placed at. The other point, is that it will create a different wireless network name than the originating point.

If you absolutely must use these, consider using a pair of linking ethernet over power adapters to bring the network to the spot where needed, and wire in the access point/mesh device.

For cheap hardware that'll do the majority of these types of jobs if you can get it wired in, but requires proper knowledge in setting up, consider Ubiquiti.

 

[goldmercury]

If you've already tried range extenders then Google Nest ain't gonna be any different.

Hardwire an AP or if you can get away with it powerline to an AP.

 

[NJW]

... powerline to an AP.

Always my first step – quick and cheap (as in 'inexpensive' ...) to demonstrate/test. If that proves troublesome because of site conditions (e.g., poor quality mains wiring), then investigate Ethernet to an AP. Range extenders don't even warrant consideration, imo, and mesh solutions are really no better than extenders.

 

[Diggs]

powerline to an AP

Powerline modules come with WiFi built in as well as Ethernet. No need to add an access point. If more WiFi is needed add another module or two.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

For best performance, you want a "mesh" system versus mix matching wifi extenders. While a wireless extender..."repeater"....is pretty much what todays MESH systems use, they can be a better. Modern day MESH systems are designed to work with each other.

One of the best MESH kits is Netgears Orbi system...the mid and upper models. Reason is, they use a dedicated 3rd radio for the backhaul link. Instead of using one of the 5 or 2.4 radios to share the duty of wifi and backhaul. This gives a tremendous increase in performance....you don't experience the "each hop cuts throughput by 50%...and each additional wifi clients cuts that again by 50%".

Now, as to placement. In anything bigger than say some 1x level 1200 sq ft ranch, you really need to do a wireless site survey to setup a wireless network for good coverage. Construction of the building varies. Some have brick walls, some have older plaster walls, some have wood walls, some have metal framing, some have stone or brick, some have cheap thin drywall, etc etc. Some have large open rooms, open floor concepts, others have lots of small rooms. Some have minimal furniture, others have lots of furniture, wall units, tall bureaus, etc.

All of the above has various affects on wifi performance.
In some homes, a single AP can cover it all well.
In other homes, you may need multiple APs to cover them well.

For site surveys, I'll bring along an AP and just plug it into power...and plop it somewhere, and walk around the rooms, halls..and move around. You determine where your signal strength reaches a certain threshold you determine to be the lowest signal strength you want. And then, look to where you need stronger coverage, and place (or move) this AP to the next location. You want the area in between them to where you don't want to get any weaker.

Understanding signal strengths and performance. Depends what the client wants/needs to do. Just basic surfing on a laptop, having -70dBm or even as weak as -75dBm can work for basic web surfing. Even -80dBm can still..slowly, bring up a basic webpage. But to watch a YouTube video .or stream Pandora audio...you'll want the signal to be stronger. I like having at least -65dBm for my weakest allowed area....unless the demands are stronger. Such as....a smart TV...for streaming, I really like the signal to be stronger than -60dBm...even stronger than -55dBm or -50 if they're Netflix users (Netflix by default rez...needs more bandwidth than Hulu or Amazon or most other streaming TV).

-35dBm is about as good as you can get. Anything in the -40 range is great.

Now for MESH, consider the performance of each satellite APs connection to the central base unit. You want that to be strong too, ideally at least in the mid 50's....no weaker. Mid 40's even better. So....gotta do a lot of "trial and error". Find the balance of *Good uplink signal..combined with *good wifi coverage from that location, to where it's needed.

 

[cypress]

One of the best MESH kits is Netgears Orbi system...the mid and upper models. Reason is, they use a dedicated 3rd radio for the backhaul link. Instead of using one of the 5 or 2.4 radios to share the duty of wifi and backhaul. This gives a tremendous increase in performance....you don't experience the "each hop cuts throughput by 50%...and each additional wifi clients cuts that again by 50%".

This is very good to know because like the OP I am not a networking guru at all haha. Still learning. I got a client that is possibly looking into a Wifi solution when they move back into their 3 story townhouse.

 

[Markverhyden]

Another tech I know has used the Unifi Beacons with a Unifi AP seem pretty happy. But that's not true consumer solution since it requires the Unifi controller.

 

[Haole Boy]

The other point, is that it will create a different wireless network name than the originating point.

I'm confused by this.... assuming that I use all components from a single provider (google, netgear, etc.) I thought that one of the advantages of the 'mesh' is that you have a single network name throughout the coverage area. Is this incorrect?

If you've already tried range extenders then Google Nest ain't gonna be any different.

Hardwire an AP or if you can get away with it powerline to an AP.

I've had a total lack of success with powerline networking

Powerline modules come with WiFi built in as well as Ethernet. No need to add an access point. If more WiFi is needed add another module or two.

Well, I have not seen this before... is there a brand / model you can recommend. Maybe I need to re-think powerline stuff

For site surveys, I'll bring along an AP and just plug it into power...and plop it somewhere, and walk around the rooms, halls..and move around. You determine where your signal strength reaches a certain threshold you determine to be the lowest signal strength you want. And then, look to where you need stronger coverage, and place (or move) this AP to the next location. You want the area in between them to where you don't want to get any weaker.

Mahalo for the detailed info, very useful. What do you use to determine signal strength when walking around? Hopefully there is some software I can use on my laptop and I don't need to buy a $1000 gizmo that I will never use again...

Harry Z

 

[frase]

I use Orbi, are expensive but failsafe and easy to setup and more satellites can be added for expansion. I don't bother with extenders waste of money and time.

ORBI

Site surveys I use my Hp 360 with the Netspot app, useful for "heatmapping" signal strength.

NETSPOT

 

[Diggs]

I like TP-Link stuff good bang for the buck but there are others.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Mahalo for the detailed info, very useful. What do you use to determine signal strength when walking around? Hopefully there is some software I can use on my laptop and I don't need to buy a $1000 gizmo that I will never use again...

Harry Z

For proper full surveys, larger networks (like schools, etc)...we use a hand held device called NetAlly airCheck G2.
Gives incredible details. I upload a floor map, walk around...and on the screen (map)....where I'm standing I press the screen to mark a survey spot, and it gathers tons of information. I keep walking around and doing that until I've walked around all the important areas (like all the rooms in the school). Upload all the data and it spits out a very detailed map and report.

For, I'll say, medium, quicker surveys, on my laptop I have an older free version of inSSIDr...back when the free version was still very functional. They crippled the free version in newer ones, so you have to now pay to get all the features. If I did not spend nearly 4 grand on the NetAlly, plus a yearly subscription fee, I'd purchase the full version of inSSIDr with the survey hardware.

For quick down 'n dirty surveys, Ubiquitis WiFiMAN app on your smart phone is actually quite useful. On Androids anyways. iPhones usually cripple most wifi survey software.

And, regarding wireless repeaters, most will just repeat the same SSID/security key. You want to avoid multiple SSIDs on the same network unless you're intentionally building separate networks.

 

[frase]

For proper full surveys, larger networks (like schools, etc)...we use a hand held device called NetAlly airCheck G2.
Gives incredible details. I upload a floor map, walk around...and on the screen (map)....where I'm standing I press the screen to mark a survey spot, and it gathers tons of information. I keep walking around and doing that until I've walked around all the important areas (like all the rooms in the school). Upload all the data and it spits out a very detailed map and report.

For, I'll say, medium, quicker surveys, on my laptop I have an older free version of inSSIDr...back when the free version was still very functional. They crippled the free version in newer ones, so you have to now pay to get all the features. If I did not spend nearly 4 grand on the NetAlly, plus a yearly subscription fee, I'd purchase the full version of inSSIDr with the survey hardware.

For quick down 'n dirty surveys, Ubiquitis WiFiMAN app on your smart phone is actually quite useful. On Androids anyways. iPhones usually cripple most wifi survey software.

And, regarding wireless repeaters, most will just repeat the same SSID/security key. You want to avoid multiple SSIDs on the same network unless you're intentionally building separate networks.

Netspot does this as well, though obviously not as in depth though worth it.

 

[timeshifter]

eero Pro is the answer IMHO

I've installed a bunch of them. eero was a startup to address this problem. They were so successful that Amazon bought them. Things I like about them is their focus on this product (not just another networking product in a portfolio of junk) and that they have real live tech support that will answer the phone and know what they're doing.

More important I suppose is that they have a dedicated radio for backhaul as mentioned already. Well, if you get the Pro models. Setup is super easy. Every install has been a success with zero complaints.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Netspot does this as well, though obviously not as in depth though worth it.

Yeah there's a bunch of good ones out there, I tried a few, Netspot, Acrylic, Solarwinds tools.
For doing full blown surveys I just found using the dedicated small device in your hand (like NetAllys)...was easier than holding my laptop in one hand and the tethered antenna in my other hand. But at the end of the day, all the tools are quite similar. Load your map and walk it, measuring along the way. The key is...what you do with the measurements obtained...how you tune all the APs.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

I forgot to mention, when doing surveys, also remember...the 5.0 radios "can sometimes" have about 50% (or sometimes much less) range than the 2.4 radios.
When I do wireless installs that have more than several APs....I'll start going into a staggering channel pattern ( you know, set the 2.4 to 1, 6, 11, and the 5 to....) where....often I'll disable the 2.4 radio on every other, or every third...AP.

On even denser environments, you'll find, in the US, on the 5 radio, when using non DFS channels, the default of 40 wide will only give you 4 channels to work with (38, 46, 151, 159). In larger setups I'll drop the width to 20, giving me much more (9x channels....36, 40, 44, 48, 149, 153, 157, 161, 165) Also, 20 wide has better penetration (range), and can have better stability. At a small performance (speed) loss.

For larger setups, learn about RSSI. That's a setting on the radio that "encourages" the wifi client to jump to a stronger AP if it detects one that has a signal strength stronger than the value you plug in here. "Roaming" is a client sided decision, but not all wifi clients make the best decision. Many wifi clients can be "too stickly". They'll latch onto the first nearest AP they detect...and as they roam around...they'll cling to that AP too much, even when you walk within better range of another AP. So, setting RSSI can have the AP "encourage...soft kick"...the client, if the client detects a better AP. What value to plug in..depends on the network you're setting up, and the signal strengths you have in key areas. If you're just starting to play with this, start at -75...which doesn't do much, but start dialing it down...-70...I often go with -67 in the setups I do, because I rarely have areas where the signal is weaker than that.

Another benefit of the above is, maintaining quality "airtime". Don't forget, wifi is half duplex, and...it talks to clients "one at a time". Talks to client A, then talks to client B, then talks to client C, talks to client D, once it makes the rounds, back to client A..and it repeats again. What happens when 1x client has a really poor connection (like -80)? That "slow connection"...causes a "wait" for EVERYONE else. So 1x weak client on an AP with a dozen other good connections...causes all of the dozen good wifi clients to suffer...slows it down for everyone. Assuming they're on the same radio. One can debate...if the poor connection is on the 2.4 radio and the other close clients are on the 5 radio...true, the slow guy on the 2.4 radio won't slow down the clients on the 5 radio. And....some wireless manufacturers have custom "tweaks" in their system to lesson the performance hit of slow clients. But it's still good to keep this basic "best practice" in mind when designing a wireless network.

This above reason is why I avoid "long range" APs...and installing wireless networks with "as few APs as possible". What good is an LR AP with a 600 foot range, when a laptop or table has a ~150 foot range? One of the Ubiquiti classes I took in NYC, from Streakwave instructor Josh Kwok....he have a good example that I often use.....

....Imagine playing a game of 'pass the football' with a professional quarterback. A decent quarterback can throw a football close to or over 200 feet. YOU...might be able to throw a football about 100 feet. Now, if you want to have a good, long lasting game of football pass, how far do you want to stand apart? If you stand about 100 feet apart...you can probably pass the ball back and forth many times. If you stand nearly 200 feet apart...he can throw to you, but you'll only be able to throw the ball about half way back to him. He'll get pretty tired of always walking forward for a minute to pickup the ball that landed waaaaay in front of him), and...say 'forget it, let's do something else!' to you!

 

[Diggs]

Hopefully there is some software I can use on my laptop and I don't need to buy a $1000 gizmo that I will never use again...

There's WiFi Analyzer for Android. It works well for my needs.

 

[carmen617]

I do only residential work, and have installed many Mesh systems - Orbi, Eero, and Google WiFi - in larger suburban homes. Once I install it, I never hear complaints about networking again. Just saying. Also, I use the same WiFi Analzyer for Android that Diggs mentions - great tool. I personally have the lowest end Eero in my own home, works great, haven't had any problems, purchased it at the introductory price of $149 for 3 units about 2 years ago and it's worked flawlessly ever since. It replaced Powerline networking devices that worked "okay", but needed to be replaced fairly frequently as they get zapped by electrical surges and fail.

Not a networking guru or expert at all, just a general all around jack of all trades, just adding my 2 cents here.

 

[Haole Boy]

More important I suppose is that they have a dedicated radio for backhaul as mentioned already. Well, if you get the Pro models.

Eero looks interesting if only for the easy return policy of Amazon. The Pro models are out of my customer's price range.

Also, is there any value in doing the site survey with the existing WiFi router? I'm assuming that whatever system I purchase, the router will be more powerful than the existing router so I should just buy the new system and give it a try. Agree?

Mahalo for all the info from everyone,

Harry Z

 

[Markverhyden]

Also, is there any value in doing the site survey with the existing WiFi router?

Yes. The idea is to see where the lower signal strength areas are. Which, in turn, drives the type and location of AP. I've even used just a standalone AP. Plug it into a power outlet, make some measurements and then move to another area. I'll usually start with a viable central location and see if there's any blind spots. If there are some spots I'll then move to two or more AP locations and measure from there.