Win 11 on unsupported

[NviGate Systems]

There was an article that showed up on my Google News Feed that was published recently, and I can't find it but essentially it was a follow up by Microsoft (not directly but a "relay" of sorts) basically saying they wouldn't stop people from doing "unsupported" installs, and even went as far as giving the registry keys you need to enable it. But offline media and wipe and 'stall were the only two methods. So, the default method of Windows Update is reserved for eligible hardware only.

But beyond that, there was essentially no difference. I think a few of us here knew that the definitive "wall" would be made an "option" at some point. Microsoft may just realize that if they want to stop folks from looking for greener pastures, give the public what they want.

 

[MudRock]

I have a new, higher end laptop and Windows 11 is buggy on it. It’s beta garbage right now. Highly recommend sticking with Win 10 till a few months after the big fall Win 11 update comes out, at the earliest. M$ gotta squash dem bugs

You know, for what is claimed to be a reskin of Win10, they bodged it pretty bad. Lets be real though, there were a TON of under the hood changes. And I really have the feeling Win11 was forced/rushed because of the changes needed to make the little/big processor designs to work in Windows.

And don't forget @Appletax , it will be 1 year before an update. They're moving away from the semi-annual rollup updates back to annual. So it'll be a good year for it. And from what I've seen, they're going to need to need every minute of it. The AMD bug is STILL present. Gaming performance is still awful.

I see eBay sellers are selling unsupported computers with Win 11 and that’s probably a bad idea.

No repercussions. It'll work long enough to get outside the window of a negative review.

If I were a betting man, I'd absolutely bet that they will not support long-term ongoing Windows 11 updates on unsupported hardware.

I know we poke fun about the "Win10 last version of Windows ever" - Such a dangerous statement. You really need new versions, even if it is publicly-visible versioning. macOS going 10.6, 10.7, etc. Making the version clear and visible and easy to understand for all, and even easier to discuss end-of-life for hardware. But it is their hardware and no one else's.

Microsoft is going to have to continue with version number increases, or something an end user is going to understand what, when, and potentially the why. They haven't actually explained WHY TPM 2.0 is really needed, and why TPM 1.2 isn't recommended. They have used this as a finite wall for end of life for Win10 and what is needed.

They put the bar way too close to what is 'current', but from their perspective, Windows 10 is supporting hardware which is now 12 years old, and about to make it almost 16 years. That is a LARGE support Window, and I guarantee from a long term support plan, it will be worse than even XP was by the end of Win10's life. XP was 12 years 8 months entire support life.

Windows 10 will have 10 years, 4 months... HOWEVER, as opposed to XP which you couldn't effectively upgrade from ME/98SE/98/95, you could upgrade hardware OLDER than 2009... That is 16 years, let alone anyone who had paid for the Windows 7 upgrade from Windows Vista (or got the free upgrade to Windows 7), you're looking at 18 years of hardware to support AND KEEP SECURE.

I wish Microsoft would just come out publicly, save face, and explain their actual motives vs letting their marketing department fumble the ball.

So you're basing that opinion on 6 months of Microsoft's limited public communications?

They allow clean installs of Windows 11 on earlier generation CPUs as long as they have UEFI/GPT/SecureBoot and TPM 1.2. These are lower requirements than publicised (and lower than are enforced with in-place upgrades). This is Microsoft's typical unwritten OK for techs and IT departments to install Windows 11 if the lower requirements are met. It's not an accident or bug, it's by design. It's very similar to Microsoft allowing clean installs of Windows 10 with Windows 7/8 keys, or still allowing upgrades if downloaded manually. They don't yell it from the rooftops, it's for techs and IT departments.

Again, they need transparency to the I.T. people. They need to say "Without TPM2, you'll lose this". Instead of security through obscurity.

As mentioned above. It's like the free upgrade window to Win10 never truly disappeared, and conversely, even after the public free window closed, people still found their Windows auto-upgrading to 10. Lack of transparency to the end user or even techs, instead just playing "coy" about it.

I'm starting to wonder if their Windows department is in trouble. Maybe realize they can't truly secure the codebase anymore, and instead rely on the public and installing new features as blanket protection vs fixing actual loopholes.

 

[britechguy]

I wish Microsoft would just come out publicly, save face, and explain their actual motives

It wouldn't matter what they did. There is always a contingent of MS Haters and/or MS Conspiracy Theorists and you just can't please them.

I've said before, and meant, that Microsoft has every right to set whatever minimum requirements they so choose for a given Windows version. That's their call, not mine, not yours, not anyone else's. We don't have to like it, either.

The very nature of our industry is that there are repeated "breaking points" where what we used to do just stops working unless we choose to be "left behind" by refusing to go with the flow. That's never going to change.

Every OS maker on God's green earth gets to set whatever minimum hardware requirements it sees fit. End of story.

 

[River Valley Computer]

It wouldn't matter what they did. There is always a contingent of MS Haters and/or MS Conspiracy Theorists and you just can't please them.

I've said before, and meant, that Microsoft has every right to set whatever minimum requirements they so choose for a given Windows version. That's their call, not mine, not yours, not anyone else's. We don't have to like it, either.

The very nature of our industry is that there are repeated "breaking points" where what we used to do just stops working unless we choose to be "left behind" by refusing to go with the flow. That's never going to change.

Every OS maker on God's green earth gets to set whatever minimum hardware requirements it sees fit. End of story.

For once we agree on something. Just look at the way Apple updates their IOS and makes cell phones obsolete and even their computers. It's funny - everyone seems to accept that with no problems.

 

[MudRock]

Every OS maker on God's green earth gets to set whatever minimum hardware requirements it sees fit. End of story.

100% agree. And they have to. I never saw how they could keep Win10 forever. And they can dictate whatever they want. Just clarity to the outside world would be helpful to all.

Computers do need to fall off at some point; I couldn't imagine telling people running Windows 10 in twenty years "Oh, I'm sorry, you have Win10, its just going to stop updating because you have an old Realtek network adapter that won't be supported anymore." - Just like iPhones and macOS, they do need finite lives. Apple too generally doesn't announce end of life too early (Usually 6 months before, so a very short time), but it is clear and concise.

Edit: I agree, it is 100% their choice for any of this. Even for the TPM2.0 module limiting even new hardware. It is how they're handling it is the challenge.

 

[Sky-Knight]

This process is being driven by both security and feature needs. Windows 11 right now is little more than Windows 10 with a slightly updated UI. But that's going to start changing with the first feature release this Fall. It's only going to continue to widen the gap. Windows 10 is in effect in extended support now, we can expect to see little more than security patches going forward.

Not that I'm complaining, it means three years of easy feature updates that don't do much but increment a version number. I'll happily wait for Win11 to be "stable" and I'm over the moon to be on Windows 11's new annual feature update cadence. It's going to be so nice to only have that crap happening once a year, and I can schedule the fleet upgrades such that they're never happening during Monsoon Season.

And the last thing I need, are machines that simply don't make the feature update leap. This line in the sand will help prevent that reality, so I'm OK with that too.

 

[fincoder]

Every OS maker on God's green earth gets to set whatever minimum hardware requirements it sees fit. End of story.

Sure it's their choice, nobody has ever suggested otherwise.

However that's not quite the "end of story". An OS with a customer base in the hundreds of millions, cutting across all demographics from home to enterprise with one codebase, they should consider:
Impact on large enterprise
Impact on medium enterprise
Impact on small enterprise
Impact on enthusiasts
Impact on self-employed
Impact on ordinary home users

If they don't, there could be a public backlash that impacts them significantly*. For a company with such a huge market share globally, politics comes into play. In the same way a dictator needs to consider politics to some extent to remain in power: they might not have to face the ballot box but they might have to face international condemnation or revolution.

* I'm not suggesting this issue will impact them significantly, but there's the danger of it for them. They'll probably get away with it this time...

 

[britechguy]

They'll probably get away with it this time...

They always get away with it. Although Microsoft is not a de jure monopoly, it is a de facto one.

You (any user, individual or entity) will end up doing what they want, though you (at least if you're an entity) may have some influence on changing what they're proposing doing.

And, by the way, I don't think Microsoft or any other IT business of that size doesn't very carefully consider all of the things you have mentioned because they have to. But you can never, and they have never, pleased all of those demographics all of the time. There are diametrically opposed wants and needs in the mix with those demographics and no matter what choice is ultimately made, someone's going to be POed and few are going to be thrilled.

 

[Sky-Knight]

I'm all over getting everyone into 8th gen and younger stuff if for no other reason than to cut powerbills.

The energy savings to be had in that leap are HUGE. The additional features are a pile of meh, but once the refurbs get down into the correct price range, which will happen in the next year or two, that process will be a no brainier positive investment.

Get updated refurb, have it pay for itself in power over the next two years.

But I'm in a hot place, where cooling costs are king, and anything we can do to reduce energy consumption on the machines means less heat to cool in the summer. It's a feedback loop that works in my favor in this argument, it's not quite as compelling when you live in a more reasonable place.

 

[fincoder]

But you can never, and they have never, pleased all of those demographics all of the time. There are diametrically opposed wants and needs in the mix with those demographics and no matter what choice is ultimately made, someone's going to be POed and few are going to be thrilled.

They could do better with various demographics by, say, splitting consumer & business version life cycles. Before XP they had two OSs: 95/98/ME for home use, and NT for business. So it can be done a different way.

 

[Sky-Knight]

They could do better with various demographics by, say, splitting consumer & business version life cycles. Before XP they had two OSs: 95/98/ME for home use, and NT for business. So it can be done a different way.

And open the flood gates to even more ID theft than we already have?

The 9x kernel was killed because it was an insecure mess, and the only reason it existed in the first place was the NT kernel couldn't do multimedia. Once DirectX 5 showed up and the world woke up to a reality that Windows 2000 could literally do everything, the need for two code bases went permanently out the window.

And good riddance!

I have no desire to return to a market where there are two different versions of Windows. With cheap business owners using home grade crap already common, I don't need a home grade OS in the mix too. Meanwhile, even if we have perfect separation, we still have home devices trying to remotely access business resources and the security reality gapes wide open.

I'm sick of this argument, and I tell people whining about costs this all day long. They're perfectly willing to shell out $1000 every two years for a new iphone, fork over $600+ every 3 years for a new game console. They can fork over $400 in a year for a machine that can meet Windows 11's min requirements.

And if they can't do that, they can rot for all I care. The "i cannot afford it" whine falls on the deafest of ears once you do any actual cost of ownership analysis. Microsoft owes these people nothing, and nor do I.

Then the overly entitled idiot that argues with the above usually fires back... well I'll just go buy an Apple then! To which I reply, thanks for making my point for me. See you in a few days. The few with actual brain cells to rub together usually come back and are ready to buy my vastly more reasonably priced solution by then.

We're long past the stage where people can afford to be this stupid. Update your rigs once a month, yes that means a reboot, make sure you have some sort of functioning AV. And for the love of all that is holy, stop giving permission to generate notifications to everything that comes along!

 

[britechguy]

And for the love of all that is holy, stop giving permission to generate notifications to everything that comes along!

I really, really don't know how any individual does not come to recognize this, and quickly. I can't count the number of times I get clients saying, "All of these notifications are driving me crazy, and I don't even know how they got here!" I then have "the talk" that the only way they get here is by you having consented to push notifications when asked. I also give them "the talk" about the default answer being "no," not, "yes," to anything you're not completely sure about. It's way easier to do the very occasionally need reversal of a "no" to a "yes" compared to trying to clean up the results of a prior, very long, stream of "yeses" to things that should never have been consented to.

 

[MudRock]

I really, really don't know how any individual does not come to recognize this, and quickly. I can't count the number of times I get clients saying, "All of these notifications are driving me crazy, and I don't even know how they got here!" I then have "the talk" that the only way they get here is by you having consented to push notifications when asked. I also give them "the talk" about the default answer being "no," not, "yes," to anything you're not completely sure about. It's way easier to do the very occasionally need reversal of a "no" to a "yes" compared to trying to clean up the results of a prior, very long, stream of "yeses" to things that should never have been consented to.

Got to love when they argue with you that the 50+ notifications listed in Chrome, and "No, I've never seen that dialog. Why would YOU think I did this?" and "I don't visit THIS kind of site. All I do is go on Facebook, read news." *sigh* Fun when they flat out argue with you.

Look, maybe you did catch something that permits all notifications. By the frequency of the notification spam that comes into my door, I have a hard time believing ALL of them are not clicked on by them.

So you get smart, turn off tray notifications altogether. Then you'll ALWAYS get "Where's my FB notification"

Even better when you get "Well my antivirus should protect against this!" One INSISTED they knew more than I, that you just had to "pay for the higher package to get protected" -- $190/yr to Norton a year, in my shop every 6 weeks because not only the notification spam, they click. on. everything. Why? "Well I pay for Norton's highest package. I should be able to do whatever the heck I want." *sigh*

 

[britechguy]

"Well I pay for Norton's highest package. I should be able to do whatever the heck I want." *sigh*

And after the second time, my response would be, "If you have not figured out that this is not so, this is never going to stop. YOU are the source of your problems. Your behavior changes or your problems remain the same."

I don't care if they darken my door again.

 

[Sky-Knight]

I love clients like that, they keep paying... and paying... and paying.

I keep pointing out the insanity and shining a light on reality.

As long as they pay, and stay mostly civil... they can continue to do so. Someone is going to profit on their stupid, may as well be me.

 

[britechguy]

and stay mostly civil...

Key phrase. Many don't when you keep telling them the unvarnished truth even when phrased in a clinical manner.

If they do, then, hey, do keep coming back. If they don't . . .

 

[Porthos]

And for the love of all that is holy, stop giving permission to generate notifications to everything that comes along!

I have taken the time to block notifications on every browser I set up a computer with.

 

[britechguy]

I have taken the time to block notifications on every browser I set up a computer with.

Would you mind sharing your exact technique, by browser? It will save me having to do deep dives to find the appropriate settings in a range of browsers. I am, of course, presuming you have your own cheat sheet somewhere. If not, and it's a PITA, then I'll do that deep dive.

 

[Porthos]

Would you mind sharing your exact technique, by browser? It will save me having to do deep dives to find the appropriate settings in a range of browsers. I am, of course, presuming you have your own cheat sheet somewhere. If not, and it's a PITA, then I'll do that deep dive.

No, I do it manually for each browser at the same time I install my standard extensions. I only install support Edge, Chrome, and Firefox.

 

[britechguy]

No, I do it manually for each browser at the same time I install my standard extensions. I only install support Edge, Chrome, and Firefox.

If it's easy, would you mind giving a pointer to the specific settings panes involved for those three (or if not the panes, something distinctive that can be used in the settings search to take you straight to the things that need tweaking)?