Cryptocurrencies

What cryptocurrencies do you use/own?

  • Bitcoin (XBT)

    Votes: 30 27.8%
  • Ether (ETH)

    Votes: 16 14.8%
  • Litecoin (LTC)

    Votes: 15 13.9%
  • Peercoin (PPC)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dash (DASH)

    Votes: 3 2.8%
  • Dogecoin (XDG)

    Votes: 4 3.7%
  • Blackcoin (BLK)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zcash (ZEC)

    Votes: 3 2.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 14 13.0%
  • None

    Votes: 69 63.9%

  • Total voters
    108
Handling splits: UASFs, BIP148, etc.:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2012799.0


Although it hasn't happened before, and it is very undesirable, it is possible for Bitcoin to split into two non-negligible separate currencies.

Why is this possible? / What causes a split?

There is no actual BTC in your Bitcoin wallet: there are only private keys which are used to unlock and then transfer ownership of BTC stored in the Bitcoin system. BTC never actually leaves the Bitcoin system. A split creates a clone of the original cryptocurrency, but with modifications preventing the two cryptocurrencies from actually being the same; after the split, you cannot send coins from one side of the split to the other. After the split, your private key can be used to unlock your coins on both the original system and the modified system.

It's like if someone got their hands on a copy of the google.com database and created super-google.com starting with the google.com database but with different features. You could use the same login credentials to login at either google.com or super-google.com. But after the clone was created, if you received mail.google.com email, it would not show up at mail.super-google.com, and vice-versa. Similarly, you can use the same private key to spend money on the original currency or the modified currency, but after the split they diverge.

Anyone can create a split. It only requires a few lines of code changes. But splits only matter if people of economic significance actually use the split (ie. they must run the modified software).

Splits happen in the following situations:

- In a contentious hardfork.
- In a user-activated softfork (UASF) which lacks both majority mining power at the time of activation and near-unanimous support from the economy. If it has one or the other, then a split does not result.
- In a BIP9-style miner-triggered softfork where a very large number of miners are lying about their enforcement of the softfork. (Unlikely.)

What happens to my bitcoins in a split?

It's similar to a stock spin-off. You have x BTC beforehand, and afterward you have both x BTC and x "BTC-X". But very importantly, your wallet will not magically know that it is now able to unlock both currencies. If your wallet is not updated to account for the split, then you will only be able to spend one of the currencies, probably the more "status-quo" one. Another possibility is that your wallet could be updated, but only to support a different currency than it would've otherwise, not to support both. It is not unreasonable for wallets to support only one currency, since they really weren't originally designed/intended to support multiple. But if your wallet only supports one of the currencies, then you will usually end up throwing away some or all of the other currency when you next send coins after the split, as a side-effect of the transaction -- this is called "replay".

Value is unpredictable. Like a stock split or spin-off, you'd vaguely expect the value of BTC immediately before the split to equal the sum of the values of "BTC" and "BTC-X" immediately after the split. But if a split like this is anything close to a 50-50 split (in relation to economic adoption/value, not node or miner adoption), then the whole thing will probably be unbelievably, catastrophically messy, which may result in the combined value crashing. On the other hand, if the minority currency is pretty small and things don't get too messy, the minority side could be speculatively overvalued (similar to altcoins) without affecting the majority side too much, causing the combined value to rise somewhat.

Which side of the split is the real Bitcoin?

That depends on a wide variety of factors, and to some degree it is subjective. The most important factor is which currency people/businesses/exchanges accept: if for example one currency is accepted by 95% of the pre-split economy, and the other is accepted by only 5% of the pre-split economy, then the 95% one is probably truly Bitcoin, and the other one can be considered a Bitcoin-derived altcoin. Note that mining power has very little influence here.

Some might say that both currencies post-split are valid incarnations of Bitcoin, but it is my philosophy that only one Bitcoin can exist at any one time; any uncertainty is only a temporary feature, and at least in hindsight there will be a single unbroken path from Satoshi's original Bitcoin to the current one.

What should I do to secure my bitcoins?

First of all, remove all bitcoins possible from banks/exchanges/"hosted wallets". If you can't export your private keys, then you don't actually control the bitcoins. This is a good idea in general, but it's especially important in case of splits. If you're using a Bitcoin bank, then you will have no control over what happens to your coins. Quite possibly, the bank will end up stealing/losing one of the currencies that you should have access to, either through greed/malice or technical incompetence, and the currency they throw away might well be the only one that ends up having any long-term value.

Possible splits are usually predictable some time in advance (see the next section). If in doubt, avoid sending transactions or trusting received transactions 12 hours before and up to a few days after the split time, and check the forum for more news. If a major split happens, I will very likely make a post and news item explaining how to handle the situation. Coins at rest are not at risk.

Generally, after a split:

- If you want to completely ignore (ie. discard) one of the currencies, and your wallet is already set up to ignore that currency, then you don't have to do anything.
- If you want to completely ignore (ie. discard) one of the currencies, and your wallet is set up to support only that currency, then you might be able to change the software's settings after the split, or you might have to switch to different wallet software.
- If you want to use both currencies at the same time or sell one of the currencies, then you will probably have to follow a somewhat-complicated series of steps possibly involving running some extra software in order to cleanly split your coins and eliminate the possibility of replay.

What are SegWit, BIP148, UASFs, and "UAHF", and how do they relate to this? / When might a split happen?

SegWit is a set of changes to Bitcoin which increases the max block size, among other improvements. Under its initial BIP141/BIP9 deployment plan, there is almost no chance of a split.

A user-activated softfork (UASF) is a general method of deploying softforks (like SegWit). UASFs have been done in the past, both by Satoshi and after Satoshi left. Unlike the BIP9 deployment method originally planned for SegWit, a UASF does not require any miner cooperation. A UASF can fail, but only through insufficient economic adoption, not by any miner action. However, splits are more likely with UASFs than with BIP9 deployments, especially when the UASF is done on a compressed schedule. (For ideally-low split risk, a UASF would take about a year to activate.)

BIP148 is one specific UASF. It is intended to activate SegWit. It activates and may cause a split on August 1. If it succeeds economically, it will activate SegWit by November.

The large Bitcoin miner Bitmain announced that they might engage in a (nonsensically-named) "user activated hardfork" ("UAHF") shortly after BIP148 activates if BIP148 has any success. This would definitely cause an additional split, resulting in up to three currencies: BIP148-Bitcoin, Bitmain-coin, and (depending on the degree of BIP148's success) status-quo-Bitcoin. As mentioned previously, if you have x BTC before the split, you'll be technically able to claim x of all three of these currencies after the split.

The next time when a split is predicted to possibly happen is therefore August 1, 2017 at midnight UTC.
 
Haha, I love the response - "We still don't ship it to you". I know it's broken english, but it rings truer that way.
Did you see this one?
Me: How long do I need to wait before you ship?
Them: Sorry , we asked our workmates, we will get it back after a week , would you like to wait ?
Looking forward to hearing from you .
Regards!
Did you see this one?
Yes, in fact I did. I think I first saw that style case on one of his videos. I'd buy one from him but the shipping to the US is $137 while the unit itself is $150.

What's frustrating is that they look like such simple assemblies. Frame pieces look like extruded aluminum like MakerBeam or OpenBeam. Then they have some nice mountings on acrylic plates that are pre-drilled.
 
I had to dig a bit on their site, but I see a quote about shipping: "All of our items ship directly from China as we live in China."

Rats. I'm starting to think it will be easier to just build one. Seriously.
The thing I like about those Chinese rig cases is the acrylic shelf for the GPUs. They're predrilled so you can mount your GPU riser boards using the 4 screw holes. Also like the acrylic shelf that's drilled for ATX and has PSU mounts.
 
I think I need to get into the business of designing mining rigs

I'm sure it was mentioned earlier in this thread that the only guaranteed money-makers of this whole thing are the folks selling equipment to the miners - much like the american gold rush of the 1850s. Probably not a bad business to be in if you can get in cheap.
 

Best to start with saying I'm far from an expert int he field - but I would say that article is largely scaremongering.

It's been discussed for months that BitCoin could hard-fork after August 1st. Your coins wouldn't vanish... they would either become part of fork A or part of fork B which are now two entirely separate currencies. So for example we could end up with BitCoin and BitCoin Classic.

From my understanding if you use an offline wallet (thus owning your private keys) then you can choose which fork your coins become part of.

If you use an online wallet/exchange the decision is made for you. This is what it means by "be a type of Bitcoin that other people will not accept as payment" - one side of the fork may be far less accepted/valuable than the other.

However - most "expert" opinions seem to be that a hard-fork wont happen at all.
 
Last edited:
Just a curious point has anyone tested or locked into Server and Workstation GPUs usually designed for multi-headed use or as a processing engine and give GFLOP and TFLOP numbers? I know they often can have a hefty price tag which may make them less desirable but given the price tags on many the current options these aren't looking so bad as well if they are designed for more data through put might they be better suited for the task? Cards like AMD's Pro/FirePro series and NVidia's Quadro Series some are even designed to be installed in a server which might be an easier multi-unit rig than these rigs people have now.

Related along those lines I recall USB or Thunderbolt based external GPU enclosure while probably a little more costly would something like that also be potentially viable for mining?
 
Yeah, my rigs are showing lower stats. I finally got my one rig functional. Just sorting out crashes of NiceHash. Two R9 Fury are doing about $5 a day USD combined. They were almost 4 each a month ago.

I'm gonna stay all in. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether with the seg there will be issues with btc payouts.

I plan on withdrawing a payment or two before. Then at least that gives me some time for folks to figure everything out.
 
Profitability is certainly down a fair bit now. My combined rig/Antminer income has gone from about £700 to less than £500 per month.

The value in fiat doesn't concern me though, only how much the rigs are making for me in BTC or altcoins. Over the few years I've been interested in and invested in cryptocurrencies, it's been an absolute roller coaster ride. Speculation, misinformation, FUD and panic all affect the prices, often quite dramatically, but eventually correction happens and they get back on track. Despite fluctuations, my combined cryptocurrency investments are still worth tens of thousands more than my original modest stake. Assuming everything goes well with SegWit (and it should, considering all the preparation and testing that's been done), I believe Goldman Sachs' Bitcoin price prediction of $4,000 before the end of the year is a very realistic one that is consistent with the long-term trajectory. So, the way I see it, what I'm mining/earning now will probably be worth a lot more in the near future.
 
So, BTC is taking a huge beating. That being said, I'm not going to panic, I'm simply going to continue to mine. If the price goes back up, then I'll be able to recover. If not, oh well. I will try and keep all my payments and not withdraw. That way, if the price does go up, well, good for me.

One thing that is for sure, if BTC keeps going down, those scammers who demand like 3 bitcoin will be sorely disappointed.
 
I understand the price drop in BTC, but not sure I understand the lower hash rates - or is that just me? Assuming not, it that just due to a large influx of miners?
 
I understand the price drop in BTC, but not sure I understand the lower hash rates - or is that just me? Assuming not, it that just due to a large influx of miners?
The hash rates of the cards you're using you mean? They shouldn't change, not unless you've made any under/over-volt/clock changes. You will see different hash rates for different algorithms/currencies though.

An increase in miners results in an increase in 'difficulty', which will reduce the earning rate but not the hash rate. Likewise though, (as I understand it) if the number of miners reduce because it becomes less profitable to mine, difficulty should begin to fall, making it somewhat self-regulating. Also, if mining reduces, supply falls, potentially resulting in greater demand, driving the price up.
 
Last edited:
You will see different hash rates for different algorithms/currencies though.
This is what has been confusing to me. I'm starting to understand it a little better, but people talk about hash rates and other metrics and it's hard to compare because in one discussion it'll be about Sols / second or minute and in another it will be about MH (mega hash). I wish I could find a nice, comprehensive, clear article that lists all the major cryptocurrencies along with what algorithm they use. I came close on Wikipedia, but it wasn't comprehensive. Best I can understand there are only about 12 - 15 hashing algorithms and 800 cryptocurrencies.
 
The hash rates of the cards you're using you mean? They shouldn't change, not unless you've made any under/over-volt/clock changes. You will see different hash rates for different algorithms/currencies though.

Ahh. Good to know. It seems my hash rate is down, so I will take a look to see what's up - I haven't done any modifications -

I'm starting to gather the parts for a multi-card rig, so wanted to get a better understanding of the hash rates before jumping in on a multi-card purchase.
 
Normally I don't make predictions, but I believe Bitcoin is headed for a blast from the past. Perhaps around $700 mark. Then when all the FUD from the upcoming segwit on Aug 1 clears, all the people that sold will be kicking themselves just like before.
 
Normally I don't make predictions, but I believe Bitcoin is headed for a blast from the past. Perhaps around $700 mark. Then when all the FUD from the upcoming segwit on Aug 1 clears, all the people that sold will be kicking themselves just like before.
I think you're probably right. Most predictions don't expect the price to fall much below about $1800 but who knows. It doesn't take much FUD to trigger panic selling. I think the 'support' level is much higher now that it was though (ie the perceived 'bargain price' at which buyers will flood in, preventing the price from falling further), so I'd be surprised to see it fall below $1000, and I'd certainly be buying quickly if it did.
 
Back
Top