Cryptocurrencies

[nlinecomputers]

Heck, at $400m you consider whether it makes sense to start your own exchange or invest in one, providing you with a market and the option to sell it.

Which just confirms that it is a Ponzi scheme. If the only way to make money is by selling your fake asset piecemeal then it is a Ponzi scheme. Because that is exactly how Ponzi schemes work. By claiming you have a method to produce an arbitrage and leveraging in as many people possible to fund it. Who in turn do the same until you max out the potential growth.

 

[fencepost]

Perhaps, but frankly if I have $400m in stock in almost any company I may also have a hard time immediately selling it without causing price drops as well.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Perhaps, but frankly if I have $400m in stock in almost any company I may also have a hard time immediately selling it without causing price drops as well.

Of course but the stock ITSELF has value beyond its trading value. If you have $400 million in a company's stock then you likely have a significant holding in the operation of the company. You have a major voting block to decide how to run the company, you can get dividends, be elected to the Board of Directors and so on.

 

[Moltuae]

And exactly what exchange is prepared to pay $400 million? It isn't worth anything if you can't find anyone able to do the transaction.

Not sure what you mean.

Exchanges don't buy your currency, you exchange it with other users for other currencies. People commonly hold and exchange sums of cryptocurrencies as large as (and much larger than) that. In fact a number of billionaires have announced in recent months that, partly due to the present uncertain economic climate, they have moved large portions of their wealth into cryptocurrencies.

As for for a Ponzi scheme .... take a look at fiat currency and how most governments continue to steal from their civilians by printing money, creating inflation and raising the national debt --- debts that have caused (or are about to cause) economic collapse. I think you'll find those fiat currency systems come much closer to the definition of a Ponzi scheme than any reputable cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin, which provide an incorruptible, transparent, distributed and decentralised ledger based on a network of thousands of computers all running the same verifiable open-source code that cannot be modified without a majority consensus.

Trust me cryptocurrencies are a huge deal. This is bigger than the dawn of the internet itself (and look how many thought nothing would come of that!). You cannot underestimate how much these decentralised blockchains will change the world. Currency is just the first application .... take a look at Etheruem for example, with its Smart Contracts and Distributed Autonomous Organisations. The applications and potential to change the world (for the better) are endless. Do yourself a favour and stop taking notice of the misinformation spread by the uninformed mainstream media and do some research before you miss this train. And with many experts predicting a 'triple crash' to be just months away, I'd recommend getting up to speed quickly.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Not sure what you mean.

If you can't get anyone to pay you in Dollars for your bitcoin then it isn't worth said Dollars. If you really have $400 million in Bitcoin I don't think you'll easily be able to "cash out".

Exchanges don't buy your currency, you exchange it with other users for other currencies. People commonly hold and exchange sums of cryptocurrencies as large as (and much larger than) that. In fact a number of billionaires have announced in recent months that, partly due to the present uncertain economic climate, they have moved large portions of their wealth into cryptocurrencies.

Gratuitous Assertion: Facts stated without provided evidence. Generic Billionaires? Name them. And moving Bitcoin from one account to another isn't proof of value outside that system. Show me a large cash-out in Dollars, yen, whatever, and we will talk.

As for for a Ponzi scheme .... take a look at fiat currency and how most governments continue to steal from their civilians by printing money, creating inflation and raising the national debt --- debts that have caused (or are about to cause) economic collapse. I think you'll find those fiat currency systems come much closer to the definition of a Ponzi scheme than any reputable cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin, which provide an incorruptible, transparent, distributed and decentralised ledger based on a network of thousands of computers all running the same verifiable open-source code that cannot be modified without a majority consensus.

Don't deflect. The faults of the Dollar do not make Bitcoin more sound it just means that the Dollar has problems.

Trust me cryptocurrencies are a huge deal. This is bigger than the dawn of the internet itself (and look how many thought nothing would come of that!). You cannot underestimate how much these decentralised blockchains will change the world. Currency is just the first application .... take a look at Etheruem for example, with its Smart Contracts and Distributed Autonomous Organisations. The applications and potential to change the world (for the better) are endless. You need to stop taking notice of the misinformation spread by the uninformed mainstream media. You really should do some research before you miss this train. And with many experts predicting a 'triple crash' to be just months away, I'd recommend getting up to speed quickly.

Blockchains can be done with any currency. There's is no need to use a new currency to move money via that system. Therefore there is no need for another currency and in fact, it just throws one more barrier up that I have to pay to solve. My landlord doesn't take bitcoin. If I take BC then I have to pay someone a percentage to convert it into Dollars that the Landlord will accept. So why take Bitcoin? Which leads to the other flaw in your argument. Bitcoin is tied to local currencies. Because not everyone takes it. If that big collapse happens then many who are invested into Bitcoin will try and sell because they need real cash assets to keep the house from being foreclosed on. A massive sell-off will drive bitcoin to the deck. Which is when EVERY Ponzi scheme, including the Dollar, collapses. With a bank run. A desperate attempt to liquate assets from who is holding them. In the 30s it was Banks with everyone trying to get printed dollars out of their virtual bank accounts (on ledger books instead of computers but still just a fake as today). With Bitcoin, they will be trying to sell the fake money for real money that everyone takes. Your predicted collapse is exactly why you need to be in anything other than cash of any kind Dollars or Bitcoin. Gold, oil, land, or food. Real assets that are valuable OUTSIDE of economic value.

 

[Moltuae]

If you can't get anyone to pay you in Dollars for your bitcoin then it isn't worth said Dollars. If you really have $400 million in Bitcoin I don't think you'll easily be able to "cash out".


Gratuitous Assertion: Facts stated without provided evidence. Generic Billionaires? Name them. And moving Bitcoin from one account to another isn't proof of value outside that system. Show me a large cash-out in Dollars, yen, whatever, and we will talk.

No problem ...

You'll find a number of articles about Billionaires who have publically stated their level of investment here:
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=billionaire+bitcoin+investment&tbm=nws

And you can see the market's 24 hour trades here: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets

If it's dollars you're interested in, take a look at the BTC/USD trading pairs on the various exchanges. This is just the daily volume. Of course most of the smart money is presently being converted *from* dollars rather the *to* dollars, but there are plenty of trades either way.

Remember also it's the trades that determine how many dollars it takes to buy BTC and vice versa. It's only by selling BTC, in exchange for dollars (as well as buying) that a price against the dollar gets established (pretty much the same way that all currency/market values work). You can see some of the more recent trades here (change the pair to XBT/USD to see the dollar trades). It's not uncommon for very large trades to occur to/from fiat currencies but, as fencepost states, it would be unwise to sell a large amount in one go. A sudden few-hundred-million dollar trade probably wouldn't affect the price drastically these days, but it would be smarter to spread such a trade over several days to get the best price. The same goes for buying into BTC; you'd be a fool to buy such a large amount of BTC in a single trade. However, the volume is such, that it takes very large trade volumes in one direction to upset the price now and of course the trade volume is growing daily.

Don't deflect. The faults of the Dollar do not make Bitcoin more sound it just means that the Dollar has problems.

Not a deflection at all. It's important to look more closely at fiat currency to see precisely the reason cryptocurrencies are being developed and adopted so rapidly. The problems of corruption and the Ponzi-like nature of most fiat currencies is what cryptocurrencies provide a solution to. In a Ponzi scheme there has to be some bad actors, profiting from the loss of others (in the case of fiat, that's usually the banks and government). Bitcoin, Ethereum, etc have no central control. Nobody is controlling the price but the people who invest in and use those cryptocurrencies/blockchains. Everyone gains when the price goes up and everyone loses when the price falls. Nobody pulls the strings; decisions to change any algorithms or protocols have to have a majority consensus (hence Bitcoin's long-running 'scaling debate', of which you may have heard).

Blockchains can be done with any currency. There's is no need to use a new currency to move money via that system.

Sure they can. And banks are trying to do just that. But they're completely missing the point.

Cryptocurrencies provide a distributed, decentralised ledger that is borderless. Anyone can use it, including the billions of unbanked people in the world. It is also inherently secure because there is no central point of attack. A fiat currency-based blockchain, controlled by the banks, would be no better than the present system. In fact it would be worse; it's a terrible idea. Do you really think that a bank would be able to keep a centrally held blockchain secure indefinitely? And what's the point if only the banked citizens of one country can use it? It would represent absolutely zero progress.

My landlord doesn't take bitcoin. If I take BC then I have to pay someone a percentage to convert it into Dollars that the Landlord will accept.

The number of places that accept Bitcoin is growing fast, especially in places like Japan, where Bitcoin is now legally considered a currency:
http://www.coindesk.com/japan-bitcoin-law-effect-tomorrow/
http://www.coindesk.com/electronics-retailer-bic-camera-begins-accepting-bitcoin/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-s-first-airline-to-accept-payment-in-bitcoin

I don't know how forward-thinking your landlord is of course -- he may be one of the last to accept cryptocurrency payments -- but until he does, yes you would need to help him in the meantime by converting it into dollars for him. If he doesn't accept it now, ask him again in a few years.

So why take Bitcoin? Which leads to the other flaw in your argument. Bitcoin is tied to local currencies. Because not everyone takes it.

This is a very common misconception. It's the same misunderstanding of currencies most people have when they first attempt to get their head around virtual currencies, myself included. You have to study and use them before you really begin to see how they're no different to fiat currencies (only better). They're not "tied" to currencies at all. However, like all currencies they are *referenced* to other currencies. In fact the entire world's economy works like a lot of unanchored tethered boats, drifting around and moving in relation to one another without any real fixed reference.

If that big collapse happens then many who are invested into Bitcoin will try and sell because they need real cash assets to keep the house from being foreclosed on. A massive sell-off will drive bitcoin to the deck. Which is when EVERY Ponzi scheme, including the Dollar, collapses. With a bank run. A desperate attempt to liquate assets from who is holding them. In the 30s it was Banks with everyone trying to get printed dollars out of their virtual bank accounts (on ledger books instead of computers but still just a fake as today). With Bitcoin, they will be trying to sell the fake money for real money that everyone takes. Your predicted collapse is exactly why you need to be in anything other than cash of any kind Dollars or Bitcoin. Gold, oil, land, or food. Real assets that are valuable OUTSIDE of economic value.

That's not how it works. When your government make your currency worthless, you will rush to alternative methods to store your wealth, in one that they cannot control and manipulate. You could try gold (good luck with that, they manipulate and control the price of that too) or you could do like the people of Venezuela and several other countries in economic turmoil have done and turn to cryptocurrencies. Pretty soon everyone in Venezuela (where it took a wheelbarrow full of Bolivar to buy a loaf of bread, thanks hyperinflation) valued Bitcoin much more highly than their own currency. In those extreme situations, those who don't adopt run the risk of starvation.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realsp...sis-is-a-case-study-for-bitcoin/#4af9626419b2
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ela-bitcoin-economy-digital-currency-bolivars

 

[Moltuae]

Just to add: @nlinecomputers I do completely understand your scepticism though. Been there myself.

You really do have to use it to understand it and appreciate why it's so revolutionary.

Tell you what (and this goes for anyone else here*), I'll put my money where my mouth is: Install a Bitcoin wallet and I'll send you some Bitcoin to play with. Not a whole Bitcoin (as you might have noticed that's quite a lot of money now!) but a few mBTC. With just a small amount like that, you'll be able to send transactions to/from your wallets to experiment.

There are numerous wallets to choose from, some much more secure than others (hot/cold storage, etc) but for starters, try Electrum for a desktop wallet and Mycelium as a mobile phone wallet. Post one of your BTC addresses here and I'll send you some funds.

If you still think cryptocurrencies are for everyone else after that; nothing lost. You can keep the money either way.




*Offer open for a limited time only -- I don't have endless funds to give away

 

[Moltuae]

Japan, South Korea drive global bitcoin prices as retail investor pile in

Article Link: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/lates...ve-global-bitcoin-prices-retail-investor-pile



Bitcoin Just Hit an All-Time High, But New Rival Ethereum Is Rapidly Outpacing It

Article Link: https://www.sciencealert.com/bitcoi...rrency-rival-ethereum-is-rapidly-outpacing-it

One of the reasons the platform has attracted so much interest lately is because major companies keep signing up to the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance, an organisation seeking to support and develop the smart contracts software.

Outfits like Microsoft and Intel were launch members of the Alliance, but the list keeps getting bigger, with 86 companies – including Samsung and Merck – joining just this week.

 

[Blues]

I have never been much for BitCoin/Cryptocurrencies perhaps just because they idea of electronic currency that I can't just go to my bank and turn into cash seems so thin and off putting. I will say while generally speaking the question of who will pay cash for it is somewhat valid the greater question is who will trade goods and services for it because really paper money is worthless until someone will accept it as payment for goods and services. A greater global reach of cryptocurrencies and the fact that paper currency holds no greater inherent value over cryptocurrencies, outside of its shear material worth, can highlight the fact that many of us who remain skeptical of it must realize the flaws and true worth of the monetary systems we currently rely on.

Side note @Moltuae do you have any guide on mining and mining hardware setup as articles of sorts I'm curious about it as something to toy with.

 

[GTP]

Side note @Moltuae do you have any guide on mining and mining hardware setup as articles of sorts I'm curious about it as something to toy with.

Yes, @Moltuae me too please.

 

[Blues]

Part of my curiosity is in re-purposing old equipment I sometimes collect due to clients not wanting to keep the machine or deal with it. The equipment clients give me often has issues but would make for fun projects and a nice fun side project w/ potential profit lol.

 

[Moltuae]

Side note @Moltuae do you have any guide on mining and mining hardware setup as articles of sorts I'm curious about it as something to toy with.

I don't really have any guides to link to. We (my customer and I) really just experimented -- and we still are experimenting with different hardware and we're continuously tweaking things. We did some research of course but a lot of the information out there is conflicting or more than a few months old, which is old enough to be no longer relevant in many cases.

I would start with what you have, especially if you have any decent GPUs that are listed here as good performers. Run NiceHash, enter your Bitcoin address, run the benchmark calibration, and you're all set.

That's precisely how we got started. Then we started trying other cards with NiceHash. I even use it as a burn-in test for servers occasionally. You won't make a lot from CPU mining but it's enough to cover the electricity costs at least while the server is on the bench getting a workout.

NiceHash uses multiple algorithms to mine various different cryptocurrencies. It rents your mining power, automatically switching to the most profitable algorithm, and you get paid in Bitcoins (how often you get paid depends on how much you're making).

After messing around with what we already had, we started comparing graphics card hashing rates and the options for scaling up to multi-card rigs. We initially settled on RX 480 8GB cards and specialised mining motherboards, such as the ASRock BTC model. The RX 480s seemed to provide the quickest ROI and we had been led to believe that the 8GB cards were better for mining as they had higher hash rates. That's not strictly true we found, after buying some 4GB cards to compare. It turns out it comes down to memory speed. The cards with the faster memory perform slightly better, it just so happens that some (not all) of the 4GB cards have slower RAM. One thing you will want do do with most of these AMD cards however, is reduce the GPU clock speed (using AMD's Wattman software). At around -15% to -%20 clock speed reduction, the cards run more efficiently. There's negligible reduction in hashrate but a failry significant reduction in power consumption (around 20-30W less). Now that the RX 480s are becoming a bit long in the tooth, we've started looking at newer models to replace them. Just today in fact, we tried an RX 570. It's a bit early to be sure but performance seemed similar to the RX 480s. One point worth mentioning if you're planning a multi-card rig using RX 480s: Use the Nov 2016 driver. The later (2017) driver appears to have issues when you're running 4 or more cards.

We presently have a number of multi-card rigs, with various combinations of hardware. Of the larger rigs, we have a couple with BTC motherboards, dual PSUs and 5/6 cards and we have a couple that consist of dual motherboards (3 cards each) instead. We're still experimenting and debating the best way to go. As we slowly build more and more of them, I'm leaning towards keeping it simple: Off-the-shelf, readily-available 3/4 PCIe motherboards with 700/800W PSUs. When you go down the route of using motherboards with 6 or more PCIe slots, the availability of the motherboards themselves can be patchy but also you have the added issues of having to use dual PSUs (or a single expensive very high wattage PSU) and potentially more instability issues.

Anyway, I think I'm beginning to ramble and digress a little now. At the risk of confusing you further, I'll stop and say just ask if you have any more questions. I'm no mining expert but I'm happy to share anything we've learned so far.

One thing I will add: We're probably up to around 25-30 cards running now, earning close to £2000 per month. Not bad considering the total investment is probably less than £6000, especially when you consider that the depreciation on the graphics cards is very slow too. There's not many business models that will provide you with a ROI of 3 months or less!

 

[Blues]

I wonder about the R9 with the higher bus. The clock speed is lower I believe but would the throughput of the bus be better?

 

[Moltuae]

I don't think bus speed is that important for mining. As I understand it, the volume of data travelling to/from the card (and therefore the required bus bandwidth) is relatively low. It seems the cards spend more time number-crunching than sending/receiving data. In fact, it's common to use x4 risers for mining (even in x16 slots), without any reduction in hash rates.

 

[MudRock]

1X risers even. It is very low interface bandwidth. Memory speed makes a diff, as does processing power. As Moltuae pointed out, you can check out NiceHash for more info.

 

[Blues]

I have been thanks. I have some access to some inexpensive old business PCs and most all are SFF or similar designs and take half-height cards you know any half-height cards that you recommend?

 

[Velvis]

I don't understand the point of crypto currencies. Is there any real need or valid use case for them? Seems like its a great way to create a ransomware industry with no real upside.

 

[Moltuae]

I don't understand the point of crypto currencies. Is there any real need or valid use case for them? Seems like its a great way to create a ransomware industry with no real upside.

I think that's everyone's reaction at first, myself included. It's not until you start to use them, study them and understand them that it begins to sink in what all the fuss is about. Like those of us who used the early internet (while those who didn't repeatedly failed to see the point), I think there comes a realisation for those using and studying cryptocurrencies, that this is technology is huge and cannot be underestimated or ignored.

I'd recommend watching some of the videos I posted earlier in this thread to get started. Also, if you know what the Byzantine General's Problem is, you'll understand why the Bitcoin whitepaper, released in 2008, created such a stir, leading to an explosion in cryptocurrencies. If you want to get some idea of the enormity of it all and the vast number of world-changing applications, take a look at Ethereum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethereum
https://blockgeeks.com/guides/what-is-ethereum/

1X risers even.

You're right. I don't know why I said 4X.

 

[fencepost]

From someone not involved with Bitcoin or any cryptocurrencies (though I have a few hundred Dogecoin....), part of the appeal of cryptocurrencies is at least potentially in less-stable regions where the local official currency ("fiat" currency, government-issued) is unstable or heavily price-controlled. In situations like that, cryptocurrencies can offer a more(! scary thought) stable option for trade - if you'd like, you can think of it as barter but with a common exchange medium which is basically what a currency is.

There are also varying economies of where it's viable to mine. If you're in a cold location where you're heating with electricity anyway, it may make sense to do that by heating up graphics cards instead of other heating elements. If you're in a sunny location with abundant solar power and regulatory issues that prevent you from doing anything worthwhile with energy surplus to your regular needs, it may make sense to funnel that surplus into mining. On the other hand if you're in a location where power is expensive and you're mining with grid-based power, it may not make any sense.

 

[Blues]

Inexpensive to buy or inexpensive to run? There's a big difference!

Your expected rate of return is critically dependent on how much power you burn, and if you get this calculation wrong you've done nothing but build a noisy space heater.

The thread Crypto Mining Costs covers the economics of mining quite nicely. If you haven't already read it, please do!

Talking about things like Dell Optiplex 980s, I think thats the model number, and inexpensive to buy but I think the GPU options and PSU options will determine the power profit potential.