Cryptocurrencies

What cryptocurrencies do you use/own?

  • Bitcoin (XBT)

    Votes: 30 27.8%
  • Ether (ETH)

    Votes: 16 14.8%
  • Litecoin (LTC)

    Votes: 15 13.9%
  • Peercoin (PPC)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dash (DASH)

    Votes: 3 2.8%
  • Dogecoin (XDG)

    Votes: 4 3.7%
  • Blackcoin (BLK)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zcash (ZEC)

    Votes: 3 2.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 14 13.0%
  • None

    Votes: 69 63.9%

  • Total voters
    108
This is a good read. Those who (like myself) were once sceptical of cryptocurrencies, and those who still are sceptical, should relate to this and find it interesting. It raises some good points and comparisons ....

The Death Of Bitcoin Has Been Greatly Exaggerated:

Article Link: https://etfdailynews.com/2017/06/04/the-death-of-bitcoin-has-been-greatly-exaggerated/

On June 20, 2011, Forbes wrote “So, That’s the End of Bitcoin Then.”
On January 16, 2015, USA Today wrote “Bitcoin Is Headed to the ‘Ash Heap.’”
On May 5, 2017, The Daily Reckoning wrote “The Death of Bitcoin.”
Since 2011, bitcoin’s been declared dead at least 129 times.
Newsletter writers, journalists, and academics have called it a “Ponzi scheme.”
Others like the idea in theory but have doubts. They are convinced the government will shut down bitcoin and render it worthless.
If it were 2013, I would have agreed with them.
 
I still find it hilarious that Doge Coin exists. Like, anyone can just start a CC if there's enough movement
Dogecoin certainly is an amusing one. To be fair though, it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. It was launched as a bit of a joke. Despite that, its price has remained steady and even risen quite a bit over the last few months.

And yes, anyone can make their own cryptocurrency. CMC presently lists 863 different cryptocurrencies. Of course many of them are junk (or "shitcoins", as they're more commonly called) but some have real promise too, with very active development, open-source coding and lots of interesting improvements/features. Before investing in any altcoins, I'd always recommend doing some research first. Bitcointalk has a Service Announcements section where you can see the announcement (ANN) thread and discussions about each cryptocurrency. Each cryptocurrency listed on CoinMarketCap has a direct link to its website and the relevant ANN thread.

The ones to be wary of, in my opinion, are those that have ICOs (Initial Coin Offerings). Not that ICOs are necessarily a bad thing per se, in fact it's a great way to crowd-fund a project, but these are essentially partially pre-mined cryptocurrencies, meaning that the developers stand to gain from any investment and subsequent increase in price. That's ok if everything is above-board, open-source and the project can be confirmed to be genuine and valuable but I would exercise more caution when researching such CCs.
 
Another interesting talk by Andreas:

The Killer App: Engineering the Properties of Money:





Coin Center to Congress: Give Blockchain Developers "Safe Harbor":

Article Link: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/coin-center-congress-give-blockchain-developers-safe-harbor/

What Coin Center wanted these subcommittees to understand, at the end of the day, is that digital currency is here to stay. It cannot be destroyed. The technology is neither bad nor good, but instead is a new tool at the disposal of anyone with a computer. To ignore the technology is to allow other countries to take the lead in adopting and incorporating it, and gaining the benefits of it in the process.
 
One thing I will add: We're probably up to around 25-30 cards running now, earning close to £2000 per month. Not bad considering the total investment is probably less than £6000, especially when you consider that the depreciation on the graphics cards is very slow too. There's not many business models that will provide you with a ROI of 3 months or less!

Have just read complete thread with great interest. Thanks for the great info.

Just a quick question, would you / your customer be in profit if there wasn't cheap or free electric?
 
Just a quick question, would you / your customer be in profit if there wasn't cheap or free electric?
Simple answer: Yes, definitely.



Presently, having cheap/free electricity (or being able offset the electricity costs by making use of the heat generated) just makes it even more profitable. My customer has in fact started installing some of the mining rigs at a second site they own (at which they pay for electricity from the grid), purely because they don't yet have the space ready at the main site. They're planning to expand the warehouse and install more solar panels but that work will take a few months at least. In the meantime, mining rigs are being installed anywhere that is practical. Also, from a business tax perspective, electricity usage is a business running cost so they're not too concerned about how much they use since it has little effect on overall profit.

In the UK, electricity is relatively expensive. I'm not sure what the average is but I think I pay something like £0.14 per kWh. A typical RX 480, configured and running at its most efficient GPU speed, consumes about 100 Watts (0.1 kW), so the running cost is approximately:

0.1 (kW) x 24 (hrs) x 30 (days) x 0.14 = £10.08 per month

A single RX 480 produces somewhere between 1.5 and 2 mBTC per day so, taking a conservative estimate of about 1.6 mBTC (0.0016 BTC) per card and today's BTC price of about £2,270, the return is approximately:

0.0016 x 30 x 2270 = £108.96 per month

So, if you have to subtract electricity costs, you'll be left with a little under £100 per card per month at the present BTC price.

Of course there will be other components to take into account, all consuming some electricity, such as motherboard, CPU, fans, etc, but the proportion of electricity they consume will largely depend on how many GPUs each rig contains. In the worst case, all those components probably add up to another 100 Watts, taking another £10 per month out of your profits, but if you have 6-card rig, producing over £600 per month, it's a relatively negligible cost.

You need to consider ROI of course too but, even when you subtract electricity costs, ROI is generally less than 3 months. There's not many business investments you can make that have such a short ROI. If you also consider the fact that, from a tax point of view, most businesses can 'depreciate' computer parts and that the resale value of these graphics cards is very high, the risks are relatively low too. It's pretty much a no-brainer.

The best place to start is to experiment with a single graphics card:

1) Install a card, such as an RX 480, that has a good/efficient GPU (profitability calculator: https://www.nicehash.com/index.jsp?p=calc)

2) Get a Bitcoin wallet (if you don't already have one), such as Electrum or a mobile wallet such as Mycelium.

3) Run NiceHash, enter your wallet address, benchmark the GPU and start mining.
 
Last edited:
The best place to start is to experiment with a single graphics card:

1) Install a card, such as an RX 480, that has a good/efficient GPU (profitability calculator: https://www.nicehash.com/index.jsp?p=calc)

2) Get a Bitcoin wallet (if you don't already have one), such as Electrum or a mobile wallet such as Mycelium.

3) Run NiceHash, enter your wallet address, benchmark the GPU and start mining.
OK, I'm going to give this a try. I've got a PC with a GTX-160 with 6GB. I've got a Bitcoin wallet (I think) over at Coinbase. I downloaded and installed NiceHash and pasted in my Bitcoin address and started mining. I'm watching the output window as it works. Can you explain what some of these numbers mean? Yes, I've tried Googling, but...

On one line there is gpuinfo. Temp is 53 C, 100% usage, MEMCTRL: 74% and power 69 W. I don't know if these values are good or bad at this point.

On the next line I get total power and efficiency. Total power is the same as what I see on the prior line. I guess it would be the sum of all my cards if running more than one. Efficiency is the key stat, I think. Right now it's at 3.6 H/W. <-- That's the number I need to understand.

I think H/W is hash per watt? The very first piece of work it crunched was at about 107 watts and efficiency was about 2.4. After a few lines (new jobs or shares) it dropped to 70 watts and about 3.6 H/W.

Hmm, while watching all this and typing it suddenly switched to a new output window. Looks like it's mining ethereum now.

In the graphical window at the bottom, it tells me my speed. Right now it's 18.960 MH/s DaggerHashim, Rate 1.34703 mBTC/Day, 3.76 USD/Day (it was 4.01 when I started typing :D )

It looks like I've earned 6 cents so far.
 
I've got a Bitcoin wallet (I think) over at Coinbase.
Coinbase is an exchange so technically it's not a wallet but an account belonging to Coinbase. It probably doesn't really matter at this stage, while you're just experimenting with very small amounts of Bitcoin, but you should get a proper wallet, one for which you hold the private keys. To paraphrase Andreas Antonopoulos: "Your Keys, Your Bitcoin. Not Your Keys, Not Your Bitcoin"

Can you explain what some of these numbers mean? Yes, I've tried Googling, but...

On one line there is gpuinfo. Temp is 53 C, 100% usage, MEMCTRL: 74% and power 69 W. I don't know if these values are good or bad at this point.

On the next line I get total power and efficiency. Total power is the same as what I see on the prior line. I guess it would be the sum of all my cards if running more than one. Efficiency is the key stat, I think. Right now it's at 3.6 H/W. <-- That's the number I need to understand.
I'm not familiar with that graphics card but I wouldn't worry too much about the numbers. If you were tweaking and running the mining algorithms manually from the command line, the numbers may be helpful but since NiceHash automatically configures and runs all the algorithms there's not a lot of tweaking to do. At least that's my assumptions; I could be wrong.

Here's a screenshot of NiceHash in action on a two-card rig of mine for comparison (2 x AMD RX 480):

e5QUNvg.png


There's really only one thing to pay attention to and that's the speed/hash-rate and that really only applies if you're tweaking the card's settings or you want to check that a newly installed card is performing as expected. The AMDs come with Wattman, which allows you to make various adjustments to the GPU performance. Out of the box, the 480s mine at the maximum speed but not necessarily at their most efficient (depending on model/manufacturer). Some of the pre-overclocked versions especially, work more efficiently if you reduce the GPU speed by 15-20%, using less electricity for little or no reduction in speed.

Hmm, while watching all this and typing it suddenly switched to a new output window. Looks like it's mining ethereum now.

That's the benefit of using NiceHash over running individual mining algorithms. While in some cases it might be a little more profitable to run the mining algorithms directly, you would need to keep a constant check on profitability. NiceHash automatically switches to the most profitable algorithm/coin to mine. For that reason, it's important to run the benchmarks so that it can calculate and keep a check on profitability.

In the graphical window at the bottom, it tells me my speed. Right now it's 18.960 MH/s DaggerHashim, Rate 1.34703 mBTC/Day, 3.76 USD/Day (it was 4.01 when I started typing :D )

It looks like I've earned 6 cents so far.
It can take a while to settle down. You'll get a better idea of how much the card(s) will make after a few days of running. Also check the online stats. The application stats are just an approximation and don't always reflect the actual earnings.

Bear in mind also that it can take a while to get paid if you're only mining small amounts per day. The payment thresholds are explained here: https://www.nicehash.com/index.jsp?p=faq#faqs6
 
I looked up the specs on my graphics card (an NVIDIA GTX 1060 6GB) and it looks like idle power consumption is about 9 watts. Seems to be running about 70 watts while mining. So I'm using 59 more watts than sitting idle. I know my electricity cost in kWh. Any thoughts on how I calculate my costs of running this?
 
We're going to dip our toe in this water as well - looks like fun (ok, clearly geek-fun, but whatever). We've got a nice Optiplex i5/8GB castoff machine, a GTX1060 6G card, and a kill-a-watt unit to measure the electricity cost. One upfront question: Is there any inherent advantage to running Linux vs. Windows as the host OS? I think the answer is "no", but I've only read a few writeups and don't have any anecdotal experience to draw from.
 
I was thinking about OS and for just dipping our toes in the water I don't think it matters. But if you're running a bunch of rigs and scaling then I'd probably shy away from Windows. I don't want a forced update restarting my system.
 
That's the benefit of using NiceHash over running individual mining algorithms. While in some cases it might be a little more profitable to run the mining algorithms directly, you would need to keep a constant check on profitability. NiceHash automatically switches to the most profitable algorithm/coin to mine. For that reason, it's important to run the benchmarks so that it can calculate and keep a check on profitability.

One critical note about NiceHash vs Pool Mining. NiceHash, you're not mining for pool reward share; You are mining for other people. NiceHash states that they will not compete and buy their own hashing power, ONLY IF it does not dip far (they have never defined) below actual value of each coin (They want to make sure miners feel it worthwhile to stay with the platform). This has some very odd side effects.

First off, there is NiceHash Solo, a separate pool mining system, that they promote heavily inside of their hash buying platform. Solo is essentially a pool, but instead of shared profits based on inputs, it is essentially a lottery.

Secondly, a lot of the pricing in NiceHash ends up being based on speculation. If something is surging or showing signs of surging, you can end up making a fair chunk of money (automatically) based on surges. For example, Zcash the other week. That went clear ham, and ended up with mining profits up as high as I saw as about 75% over average. If you were in a pool, you might not see that, especially if the prices are swinging wildly or sell at the right time.

Now, on top of this, I did do some preliminary numbers, and I find that unless you use one of the automated balancing software packages, you will likely see more cash out at the end of the day with NiceHash because something's always surging and increasing the price. The biggest issue with NiceHash, is the slow change between mining different coins, and the changing in different jobs, which ends up eating much of those gains. I was hoping that NiceHash 2 would end up have some sort of pre-queuing system, where it would spool up the next job when it comes up, so there would be little to no downtime in the changeover. Unfortunately they don't see the benefit in the reduced job change time.

Third, while you're mining specific coins, you are paid out in bitcoin. Some people don't like this; To others, it makes it super easy. This is up to you. However, this in itself causes its own world of challenges. Not only are you dealing with altcoin fluctuations, you also are running on bitcoin fluctuations. As well, the transaction fees are climbing so high on bitcoin, that you will lose a lot more than if you mined directly and spent directly.

However, there are a few more quirks to mining in bitcoin. As much as the bitcoin INCREASING in value is nice to our wallets, it also means people don't pay as much in bitcoin for mining, due to the fact that in an increase scenario, you find that your dollars in will be lower than the gain in market on the upturn, than when bitcoin is flat and has been flat for a bit. ALSO, during a downturn, people will throw cash into mining fast, and pay high. I don't see much benefit when it is running downwards; Sure, you're making more BTC, but at a dropping price.

I looked up the specs on my graphics card (an NVIDIA GTX 1060 6GB) and it looks like idle power consumption is about 9 watts. Seems to be running about 70 watts while mining. So I'm using 59 more watts than sitting idle. I know my electricity cost in kWh. Any thoughts on how I calculate my costs of running this?
Unless you're running it in your daily workstation, you need to factor in your entire system W cost as cost for power. That's why many people run many cards in 1 system, to reduce the overhead. And if you want to be technical, in the workstation, you should be factoring the entire card, not just the difference.
We're going to dip our toe in this water as well - looks like fun (ok, clearly geek-fun, but whatever). We've got a nice Optiplex i5/8GB castoff machine, a GTX1060 6G card, and a kill-a-watt unit to measure the electricity cost. One upfront question: Is there any inherent advantage to running Linux vs. Windows as the host OS? I think the answer is "no", but I've only read a few writeups and don't have any anecdotal experience to draw from.
Really depends. End of the day, the OS does not put enough (any?) overhead on that is going to offset it. If you're using nicehash, Windows is the way to go; Sure, you can set up miners to work with NiceHash, but you'd need another balancer, unless you only intend at mining one coin in exchange for bitcoin.

The biggest perk apparently to Linux, is the handling of more than 5-6 GPUs in the system, and a lot more automation abilities as well as a free licence.

I was thinking about OS and for just dipping our toes in the water I don't think it matters. But if you're running a bunch of rigs and scaling then I'd probably shy away from Windows. I don't want a forced update restarting my system.

Personally, I don't recommend using anything but Windows 7 for a full-time mining system. Windows 10 becomes a nightmare on a few levels including the one you mentioned. For mass deployment, Linux could be easier, but again, if you're doing mass deployment, you could just clone drives too.
 
Unless you're running it in your daily workstation, you need to factor in your entire system W cost as cost for power. That's why many people run many cards in 1 system, to reduce the overhead. And if you want to be technical, in the workstation, you should be factoring the entire card, not just the difference.
Yeah, I get that. That's a PC that I leave on all the time anyway and it's usually not doing anything. So I'm already paying for the PC to sit idle and use electricity and I'm OK with that. Just trying to figure out how much it costs incrementally to slam that card with a ton of work by running the NiceHash routines.
 
I looked up the specs on my graphics card (an NVIDIA GTX 1060 6GB) and it looks like idle power consumption is about 9 watts. Seems to be running about 70 watts while mining. So I'm using 59 more watts than sitting idle. I know my electricity cost in kWh. Any thoughts on how I calculate my costs of running this?

If you know what you're paying per kWh and you know the total power consumption, the calculation is quite simple ....

Referring to my earlier example: 0.1 (kW) x 24 (hrs) x 30 (days) x 0.14 = £10.08 per month

So for 70 watts (if it's a system that's always on and you're only interested in the extra power consumed)

0.07 (kW) x 24 (hrs) x 30 (days) x [cost]

Just replace [cost] with your electricity cost per kWh.

I was thinking about OS and for just dipping our toes in the water I don't think it matters. But if you're running a bunch of rigs and scaling then I'd probably shy away from Windows. I don't want a forced update restarting my system.

We're using Windows 10, mainly because we're building numerous new rigs, so we wanted readily available licences and a solution that would be easily repeatable, without having to worry about whether windows 7 drivers will be available for any motherboards we're buying in future.

The automatic updates aren't really a problem per se, since we have NiceHash configured to autostart with Windows and to start mining automatically too, so the updates probably don't amount to more than a few minutes of lost revenue per month. What we did have a problem with though, is how Windows 10 forces driver updates too. There is an issue with the latest driver for the RX 480 when running multiple graphics cards so we use the Nov 2016 driver. However Windows insisted on replacing the driver so we had to use the Group Policy trick to prevent it doing so:

https://www.howtogeek.com/263851/ho...from-automatically-updating-specific-drivers/
 
I believe my electricity cost is $0.10 per kWh. So that means my daily incremental cost would $0.168?

70 watts of power consumption for the hour translates to .07 kWh ?
 
I believe my electricity cost is $0.10 per kWh. So that means my daily incremental cost would $0.168?

70 watts of power consumption for the hour translates to .07 kWh ?
That's correct. A kWh is simply a usage measure based on 1 kW used for 1 hour (ie kW x hours). So 70 Watts (0.07 kW) used continuously for 1 hour is 0.07 kWh. Or 1.68 kWh if used continuous for 1 day (0.07 x 24). Or 50.4 kWh if used continuous for 1 month (0.07 x 24 x 30).
 
Here's a screenshot of NiceHash in action on a two-card rig of mine for comparison (2 x AMD RX 480):

e5QUNvg.png
I'm seeing similar numbers, but in US $. Looks like your two card rig will gross $10 per day (USD). That's $3,650 a year if you run it 24/7/365.

OK, what's the catch? Power costs? We're at a really high payout right now?
 
I'm seeing similar numbers, but in US $. Looks like your two card rig will gross $10 per day (USD). That's $3,650 a year if you run it 24/7/365.

OK, what's the catch? Power costs? We're at a really high payout right now?
Yup. My customer's rigs are making more than double that figure now, per month! .... and we're still adding more rigs. He has no power costs, but even if he did have, his monthly bottom line would only be a few hundred pounds less.

There aren't any catches (hence the reason everywhere is presently sold out of most of the popular mining graphics cards) but, as with any business or investment, there are risks to consider when investing in mining hardware:

Long-term mining profitability:
There are a number of reasons it could become less profitable to mine, such as a fall in cryptocurrency prices, an increase in hardware prices or electricity costs, an increase in 'difficulty' or a decrease in mining 'rewards'. Mining rewards don't change too often and usually by the time they do the cryptocurrency's price has increased substantially to more than compensate for the change. Bitcoin's reward 'halvening' happens every 4 years. We had one a year ago, so the next halvening is in approximately 3 year's time. Difficulty is a self regulating mechanism that ensures that new blocks can't be found/mined too quickly. The more mining power that comes online, the harder it gets to mine. However, usually increases in difficulty go hand-in-hand with cryptocurrency price, in that the more difficult it gets to mine, the more the cryptocurrency becomes worth (due to scarcity and higher asking prices).

Long-term mining availability:
Not all coins can be mined (ie Proof Of Work). Some use Proof Of Stake (or even more innovative ideas like Proof Of Storage). Ethereum should be moving to Proof Of Stake in the near future and it's possible Bitcoin and others may eventually do the same, though considering how long it is taking to reach consensus on a fix for Bitcoin's scaling issue and that miner's hold most of the voting power, I think it's unlikely Bitcoin will become a non-mineable cryptocurrency any time soon. And there will probably always be some altcoin worth mining.

Hardware costs and depreciation:
Presently, popular mining graphics cards hold their prices very well, often selling used for as much (sometimes even more) than new cards. That of course could quickly change if it becomes impractical or unprofitable to mine for any reason. However, since the ROI is generally less than 3 months, the risk is probably minimal. Also any risk can be mitigated somewhat by using non-mining-specific hardware, such as graphics cards that are popular for gaming.

The 'bursting bubble':
Some media outlets like to predict a dramatic collapse in cryptocurrency value. These are usually the same ill-informed pro-establishment organisations that show their pitiful lack of understanding by likening Bitcoin to a Ponzi-scheme or predicting the death of Bitcoin (see the growing list of Bitcoin Obituaries published over the last 6 or 7 years -- does it remind you of anything?). If you follow cryptocurrency developments and the more factual news outlets, you'll see the immense growth and potential of a technology that is already very widespread yet only just getting started. However, if you prefer to err on the side of caution, you can of course minimise any risk of losing funds due to falling cryptocurrency prices by immediately exchanging anything earned into your local fiat currency. Considering the state of most of the world economies right now though, I think the wiser bet would be to maintain a diversified portfolio of a number of different cryptocurrencies (properly secured in your own offline wallet of course).


There are probably a few other 'risks' from a business plan point of view, but that's about all I can think of right now. Certainly if you view mining as a business venture (like my customer has), the risks are fewer than most other business ventures. And it would be hard to find another business investment that promises such a quick ROI.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for that detailed reply!

My customer's rigs are making more than double that figure now, per month!
What have you settled on recently as the best card and motherboard combo lately? I know you talked about 4GB RX 480s in post #72 and you're leaning toward 3-4 card systems for various reasons.
 
Back
Top