Why I hate Macs and coffee shops

[gunslinger]

there probably is malware but you havn't seen it due to market share,

(i think I'm gonna write a few viruses for macs )

I challenge anyone to hack my Mac or infect it without touching it or me typing my password. At lest 90-95% of the Windows systems I get here in the shop are infected with something. I have heard about Macs getting infections but have yet to see one in the real world. I have also heard about the guy who won money by hacking a Mac. ( PC fans like to bring this up a lot ) Problem is it was under very controlled conditions and set up. Also, it was one guy, one single hacker who found an exploit. I have read in a few places that over 100,000 new threats are created for Windows daily. When it comes to security you can't even began to compare the two. If its market share or the OS itself is not the point, its just more secure period.


Now lets talk stability. I have already stated that In over a year of ownership I have yet to have a single error with my Mac. I personally know about 50 people who own Macs, ( youtube subs that I talk with and personal friends here ) Only two have had any problems with their Macs in the past two years. One had a HDD failure the others DVD drive went out. Both hardware issues not OS issues.

 

[Nerm]

IMO, OS stability has more to do with the user than the actual OS. I use Ubuntu as my primary OS, but I also use Windows and OSX on a daily basis and have no stability issues with any of the three.

 

[anonymous Mac Tech]

IMO, OS stability has more to do with the user than the actual OS. I use Ubuntu as my primary OS, but I also use Windows and OSX on a daily basis and have no stability issues with any of the three.

I'd beg to differ that it is more to do with the user on a much larger degree with Windows and much less with OSX. Usually with OSX if the corruption is caused by the user it is usually just confined to the user account. In that case clearing out the .plists files and caches will fix it, but on an extremely rare occasion you may need to rebuild the entire user account. To tell the truth the great majority of system bugs usually come through software updates, but alot of times that can be avoided by not using software update and just downloading the combined updates and manually installing them. Sometimes even after the damage has been done by software update, just going over and manually installing the update will fix the corruption.

 

[angry_geek]

Mac/Windows debate started in another thread

Hey all, check this out http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7131 Have fun

 

[purple_minion]

IMO, OS stability has more to do with the user than the actual OS. I use Ubuntu as my primary OS, but I also use Windows and OSX on a daily basis and have no stability issues with any of the three.

I agree, except I don't have a mac. I use linux and winblows and don't have too many issues with either most of the time. Most people screw it up themselves as well.

 

[MrUnknown]

count me in for the user being the main source of issues, no matter the OS. Also, no matter the OS, there are exploits that allow anything to be executed without any kind of confirmation.

to act like simply running OS X will make you immune from any attack is silly.

http://www.securityfocus.com/cgi-bi...isplay_list&vendor=Apple&version=&title=&CVE=

Heres the current Java exploit I mentioned earlier:
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/32608/info
"Successful exploits may allow attackers to violate the same-origin policy, obtain sensitive information, bypass security restrictions, run untrusted applets with elevated privileges, and cause denial-of-service conditions. This may result in a compromise of affected computers."

Stability? I run Vista and do all kinds of things to it, the only time I have seen a blue screen is from my RAM slot failing.

 

[Jory]

http://cad-comic.com/comic.php?d=20060513

 

[gunslinger]

While I agree that the user is a big part of it, a careless end user can get away with a lot more using a Mac.

Lets take web surfing as an example. If the Windows user is careless and visits shady sites often ( porn, warez, ect ) and is not running really good protection ( or in some cases even if he is ) he will be infected with all sorts of nasty malware and viruses in short order. Not so for the Mac user.

If I'm careless and open an attachment in my mail on a Windows machine that contains a virus, chances are good I will be infected. Almost a guarantee if I'm not running a very good antivirus program. Not so with the Mac.

A secure OS is a secure OS no mater what the end user does. Now if the Mac user wants to practice safe browsing habits and use firefox and not open email attachments, all the better. They are even more secure.

 

[Nerm]

I agree yes a idiot user can get away with a lot more on Linux or Mac than they can on Windows. I am not trying to defend Windows in any way. I just wanted to make sure my Linux got a little love. lol

 

[JRDtechnet]

I'm running Vista 64 Ultimate, its rock solid, fast, and I have never been infected. The only BSOD I've had was due to an incompatibility between sp2 and Eset security. The main reason I like windows is simply user experience, I like the gui better and I'm more productive in a windows environment.

Also don't for a second think that Mac users can't be duped into downloading malware or a malware infected freeware. There are plenty of exploits for macs waiting to be well exploited. Only reason macs haven't been a target is because of market share. If your going to pass around a virus via attachment, IM, or web site exploit your going to maximize your ROI by targeting 90% of computers (Windows) not 10%.

Mark my words, if Mac market shares hit 30-40% you will see a marked increase in malware code/programs being written for the macs and a lot of mac users are going to be caught with their pants down since they won't be running any security program. We have already seen the first mac botnet this year.

That said there is one main aspect of OSX that I like a lot, namely the fact that it has no registry that gets bloated with unused keys from long forgotten applications and with the registry you have all your eggs in one basket so to speak. Microsoft would do well to phase out the registry in favor of individual configuration files for each program. Want to delete a program, take the folder and delete it...program gone. No uninstalling and leave half the registry entries behind.

 

[anonymous Mac Tech]

Also don't for a second think that Mac users can't be duped into downloading malware or a malware infected freeware. There are plenty of exploits for macs waiting to be well exploited. Only reason macs haven't been a target is because of market share. If your going to pass around a virus via attachment, IM, or web site exploit your going to maximize your ROI by targeting 90% of computers (Windows) not 10%.

Mark my words, if Mac market shares hit 30-40% you will see a marked increase in malware code/programs being written for the macs and a lot of mac users are going to be caught with their pants down since they won't be running any security program. We have already seen the first mac botnet this year.

That said there is one main aspect of OSX that I like a lot, namely the fact that it has no registry that gets bloated with unused keys from long forgotten applications and with the registry you have all your eggs in one basket so to speak. Microsoft would do well to phase out the registry in favor of individual configuration files for each program. Want to delete a program, take the folder and delete it...program gone. No uninstalling and leave half the registry entries behind.

You've got some great points JRDtechnet! Apple has acknowledged recently that no OS is completely invulnerable to malware even with further precautions that are being taken with Snow Leopard. You always have people just like in the Windows world who don't update their software or OSs. I cant tell you how many people I still see running 10.3 or 10.4 even though 10.5 has been out for nearly 2 years and 10.6 will be released in September. Once Apple gets more market share, these non updated OSs will be 1st to be exploited and then perhaps things will move up the ladder. Also, bad browsing/download habits will eventually affect Mac users. But I don't think in my lifetime that Apple will ever be nearly as exploited as Windows has been or even come close to being exploited in the same degree, market share or not. The iphone has been an absolute market share hog since its been released, yet where are the exploits? Its not do to software developers not developing apps for it. Every software developer wanting to make a profit has been developing apps for the iphone and there are thousands of apps available through the app store. Surely someone could slip an exploit or two in that way. You can't tell me there is no ROI on creating a nasty exploit for the iphone OS. Its even getting to the point that apps are being developed for the iphone where MDs will be able to monitor their critical patients vitals through apps being developed for the iphone. I'm sure if iphone was even close to being exploited that idea would be tabled until security was addressed. Do we need more time to pass before we see something? The underpinnings of OSX are Unix which was designed around security. Unix has been around since 1969-71. There was plenty of time and incentive to exploit Unix for many years even before Windows came along, yet we didn't know what the word exploit meant before Windows. Windows could even keep themselves more secure by just locking down the kernel, yet they keep it open for all of the big money AV developers. Microsoft has dug themselves into such a hole that when they did threaten to close the kernel, Symantic and McAfee screamed lawsuit.

We can agree on one thing though, life without a registry is good.

 

[abe]

@anony
you say that unix has been around since ..... and we didn't kmow what exploit meant till windows came around.

are you saying this from knowledge or because thats you what you want the truth to be, doesnt the word ROOTKIT mean something to you if it would have been a windows exploit it would be "c:\KIT"

i posted a link but you seem to have ignored it so I'll quote

Apple Computer Inc. was given the historic honor of being the first computer to bring virus technology into the home[1] when Richard Skrenta wrote Elk Cloner in 1982. This program attached itself to the Apple DOS operating system of the time and spread via floppy disks.

yes i know that was before they used unix but now this

All successful, and most plausible, malware attacks on Mac OS X have occurred in the last 2 years with the last quarter of 2007 being particularly prolific. Market penetration and overall sales of the Mac OS X system have directly mirrored development of malware, a phenomenon also demonstrated with other operating systems such as Microsoft Windows. Based on this data there is no reason to believe the trend will not continue as Apple continues to increase their market share.

The concept of the economy of scale has historically meant that malware authors have not previously considered the Mac a viable target. This protection is being eroded by the increase in size of the Mac user base.

heres the link again http://www.macforensicslab.com/Prod...ocument_general_info&cPath=11&products_id=174

heres a quote from wiki

The term rootkit or root kit originally referred to a maliciously modified set of administrative tools for a Unix-like operating system that surreptitiously granted root access. If an intruder could replace the standard administrative tools on a system with a rootkit, the modified tools would allow the intruder to maintain root access over the system while concealing these activities from the legitimate system administrator. The earliest known rootkit was written in about 1990 by Lane Davis and Steven Dake for SunOS 4.1.1.[citation needed] There was an earlier exploit equivalent to a rootkit that was perpetrated by Ken Thompson of Bell Labs against a naval laboratory in California to win a bet.[citation needed] Thompson subverted the C compiler in a distribution of Unix to the Lab.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit

where you even born before 1990 (thats a joke please take as such)

please in the future when you talk about stuff others have little knowledge about bring references and quotes, i'm ready to hear all the different view's about win versus mac versus linux but not things that simply arn't true.

a random quote will post more later

This problem is *VERY* old! The earliest exploit I know of was for a
1200-baud "glass TTY" circa 1970. [The terminal contained "block mode"
features that could be easily exploited given case #1 or #2 above.]
Yet most people don't think much about it these days, despite the
fact that new 3rd-party (and open-source!) "advanced" (so-called)
terminal emulators keep popping up that re-open this vulnerability
with "new useful features"... :-(

 

[JRDtechnet]

@anonymous Mac Tech

No ROI by attacking the iphone wouldn't be much. Consider that the iphone only accounts for 1.1% of the overall market share for cell phones and 10.8% for the smart phone market, compared with RIM at 19.9% and Nokia at 36.2%.

See table 2 http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=985912

 

[anonymous Mac Tech]

@anony
you say that unix has been around since ..... and we didn't kmow what exploit meant till windows came around.

are you saying this from knowledge or because thats you what you want the truth to be, doesnt the word ROOTKIT mean something to you if it would have been a windows exploit it would be "c:\KIT"

i posted a link but you seem to have ignored it so I'll quote


yes i know that was before they used unix but now this



heres the link again http://www.macforensicslab.com/Prod...ocument_general_info&cPath=11&products_id=174

heres a quote from wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit

where you even born before 1990 (thats a joke please take as such)

please in the future when you talk about stuff others have little knowledge about bring references and quotes, i'm ready to hear all the different view's about win versus mac versus linux but not things that simply arn't true.

a random quote will post more later

I was born before 1990, I'm close to 40 and no offense taken.

I did read your article, it was not ignored. I did acknowledge that Macs can and with increased market share, will see more viruses. I stated that in my lifetime it will never be close to the degree that Windows has seen. Yes malware did exist before Windows and I perhaps should've reconstructed my statement to say "malware never came close to becoming a household term until Windows came along."

I'm sorry if I don't come armed with links. I just assumed this was common knowledge among like-minded techs. Not to mention everytime I get into one of these discussions, I see nothing but links flashed in front of my face by people trying to argue a point though someone elses research. Thats why I'm not crazy about these debates. I'm going by what I've seen on a professional level supporting Macs for many years now. I'm far from a fan-boy that has to wave a flag for the underdog Apple. Not to mention you sited Wikipedia in one of your references. Come on abe! You know that you or I could've contributed to that. I look up stuff on wikipedia all the time, but I don't use it to site my point. Even in college or anything else where you're siting a source, wikipedia isn't even considered the futhest thing from a valid reference.

No hard feelings abe on my side and I hope not yours. You are a great tech. I read your posts alot and you have contibuted alot to me by reading your posts and this community.

 

[abe]

I stated that in my lifetime it will never be close to the degree that Windows has seen. Yes malware did exist before Windows and I perhaps should've reconstructed my statement to say "malware never came close to becoming a household term until Windows came along."

on what do you base the fact that in your lifetime it will not come close, if you mean to say the mac will not have a big market share hence less malware then your probably correct due to their price, but if you think that the OS is in any way more secure then I think you are very wrong, I've done my research and thats what I've found therefore i will not post links since you seem to think that links don't prove anything

I'm sorry if I don't come armed with links. I just assumed this was common knowledge among like-minded techs. Not to mention everytime I get into one of these discussions, I see nothing but links flashed in front of my face by people trying to argue a point though someone elses research. Thats why I'm not crazy about these debates.

common knowledge, it seems from my research that this is common myth more then common knowledge, and i wonder who you mean by like-minded tech's (perhaps Gunslinger )

I'm going by what I've seen on a professional level supporting Macs for many years now.

how are you going to know facts of other os's working on macs

from a fan-boy that has to wave a flag for the underdog Apple.

that may or may not be true, lets keep this a debate on issues rather then a debate on personalities

Not to mention you sited Wikipedia in one of your references.

the reference was regarding an historical fact not something that can be debated

No hard feelings abe on my side and I hope not yours. You are a great tech. I read your posts alot and you have contibuted alot to me by reading your posts and this community.

that i fully agree with, i think its very true i was waiting for someone to mention it.

Abe

P.S.

I will say this , if you want to be virusless for the next few years, and dont mind not upgrading your machine, and have the money to spend on a mac then DO IT, just remember hardware is hardware, the only difference is the OS.

 

[anonymous Mac Tech]

All operating systems have their uses, their good and their bad. No point in arguing about them. Just use what works best for you.

Great point. Next time any debate that comes close to evolving into a Mac vs. Windows debate, I'll know better. I usually do know better but just wanted to state a couple things for my perspective. Defending Macs on these forums is like bringing a knife to a gun fight considering the PC to Mac ratio.

(NOTE: In case anyone wants to debate about how a Mac is not a PC, for the record, technically speaking, a Mac is a PC since "PC" means "Personal Computer", which is exactly what a Mac is, and therefore it is a PC)

Yeah, we know. Nobodies debating that. Its been discussed several times over. Its just easier to say PC as opposed to a "personal computer running Microsoft Windows" and everyone knows the differences.

@abe
hey you win. Just because I'm a full-time Mac guy, I've never touched a Windows machine and don't know what I'm talking about. Even though I went all through college without touching a Mac and spent my first few years in the field doing a much higher percentage of Windows work than with Macs. I'll admit I'm not real fresh on Windows, but I'd have to live under a rock to be a tech and not see Windows. Windows does run on Apple hardware now and I still see enough of those. And yes, hardware is hardware, that was never disputed, I think I stated that in an earlier post acknowledging that fact.

Bryce can lock this thread at any time.

 

[angry_geek]

Now I see why everyone freaked at my other thread. Whatever happened to professional mature debate? Why does it always turn goofy?

Anyway. So if we're all done here, how about the OP? Anyone have good stories of ID10T's or people bugging you whenever they feel like it just because you fixed their email or something once?

 

[abe]

Now I see why everyone freaked at my other thread. Whatever happened to professional mature debate? Why does it always turn goofy?
[/quote ]
I see nothing turning goofy, but I'd love to see a debate where facts aren't ignored

Abe

BTW angrygeek did you get my PM

 

[gunslinger]

A secure OS is a secure OS no mater what the end user does.


Security is a mindset, a way of thinking, acting and being. It is not a piece of software or hardware. It is not a matter of IF someone can get into a system, but rather a case of WHEN.

All else being the same if you set the same person up with a Mac and then a PC he/she will be infected on the Windows based machine first. If this person knows how to keep safe, great he will be less likely to get infected on either. The point is if the user is careless on both the Windows machine will suffer far more and more often.

Each serves it's own purpose.

Sure they do. But some do certain things better than others. This is just a fact. Macs are more secure period.

 

[abe]

@gunslinger
macs are not more secure and that's a fact.

when will you understand that market share is what makes the difference