To my fellow American computer techs

[britechguy]

We have bigger problems, the 2nd wave when the police are found not guilty. Think Rodney King was bad, multiply that times 1000.

And given what's happened, and been witnessed via video, by the entire nation, on multiple occasions, since Rodney King that reaction is entirely reasonable and justified.

You can't deny people justice forever and have them just sit there and take it. We are at an, "It's now, or will be never," moment for doing something that allows the country to hold together and move forward or dissolve. And whether that dissolution is slow, or fast, if this is not addressed as it needs to be addressed the country will come apart.

 

[callthatgirl]

Everyone needs to be re-trained.

 

[britechguy]

Everyone needs to be re-trained.

You can't re-train basic human emotional impulses. Or at least you cannot re-train a statistically significant number of the constantly changing human inhabitants of this earth.

I can understand righteous fury. What I can't understand is how anyone who has it believes that doing something to someone else, or their property, that they would not have done to themselves helps their situation.

 

[callthatgirl]

Welcome to America! The land of misunderstandings.

 

[phaZed]

Everyone needs to be re-trained.

There are some countries that don't have ANY police killings in a given year (Australia - I'm looking at you!). Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland. Japan, too. There are dozens of countries that keep single digit death-by-police tally, too.

We need to re-train for sure... this time we don't need to get it from the Israeli's.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-who...-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/

 

[callthatgirl]

Ask yourself why there were not as many riots and protests in the south.

 

[britechguy]

Ask yourself why there were not as many riots and protests in the south.

You must be living in a different American South that I do. There were protests in Richmond, Atlanta, Florida, Texas, and the list goes on and on.

I can't speak specifically to riots. The reporting, like the protesting and some rioting/looting, has been so fast and furious that I've really not been able to keep up on exactly "what's happening where." But I do know that a large number of major cities in the American South have had protests. Heck, even dinky little Harrisonburg and Staunton, VA, have both had protests, as has Charlottesville.

 

[Sky-Knight]

And buried under the headlines of the rioting and looting... there are buckets of examples of protestors stopping the looters / rioters and helping the police arrest them. There are examples of police getting separated, and abused by protestors only to be rescued by others.

I see fire and gloom too, but I also see the golden heart of America in these events.

What saddens me, is that people seem to think it's OK for an officer to arrest you, use potentially lethal maneuvers to do so, over a false or minimal charge. George had the cops called on him over $20 for crying out loud. A supposedly counterfeit $20 that was later proven to be quite real.

We have a Fourth Amendment darn it, and YES you DO FULLY HAVE THE RIGHT, to NOT BE ACCOSTED BY POLICE for frivolous, or inaccurate reasons. You absolutely do have the right to resist an unlawful arrest, but the police in their little power trips enabled by Constitutionally ignorant people abuse people on a regular basis. It's not really a racial issue, I've personally experienced this nightmare too. But, it does disproportionately impact certain racial groups. I think these days it has more to do with poverty than actual race, because poor people can't sue the department into oblivion for being stupid. Therefore there's no impetus to not be stupid.

The three officers involved in this specific event, had they been military MPs would have already been before a tribunal and convicted. So while we're all sitting here watching Congress try to remove military hardware from the hands of the local police, they're ignoring the fact that military methods of policing are demonstrably superior! The schism drives me nuts.

 

[sapphirescales]

the police are found not guilty.

That's not going to happen. They might not be convicted of murder, but they'll at least be found guilty of manslaughter.

 

[Porthos]

right to resist an unlawful arrest

Out of curiosity, I read the following.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/right-to-resist-unlawful-arrest/

 

[britechguy]

Out of curiosity, I read the following.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/right-to-resist-unlawful-arrest/

God bless Snopes.

But, even if there were an absolute right to resist unlawful arrest, exactly who is it that gets to decide it's unlawful (and I mean in the moment the attempted arrest is occurring)?

Common sense dictates that complying with law enforcement officers, even if you know that they are 100% in the wrong, is both the safest thing to do and the one where you end up on the most solid legal ground for action later. The moment you give even a hint of resisting arrest that brings a cascade of other laws into play, most of which favor law enforcement, and for very good reason.

And there's a very, very good reason that the well known "talk" has to be given, mostly to young black men, by their parents. It's a fact that being arrested for "driving/walking/jogging/{insert commonly occurring activities of daily living here} while black" is shockingly common and the willingness of enough of law enforcement, even if it's a small percentage, to overreact is well documented. So, first and foremost in your mind should be doing what keeps you safest (which isn't necessarily perfectly safe). And, sadly, minorities need to be far more attuned to this than white people do, and there's tons of hard data collected over decades that prove it, so, please, if you want to argue about this, don't.

 

[callthatgirl]

That's not going to happen. They might not be convicted of murder, but they'll at least be found guilty of manslaughter.

Let's wait and see.

 

[sapphirescales]

Let's wait and see.

Unless there's clear evidence that the cop feared for his life or that letting up would have endangered himself and the other officers, he's guilty of manslaughter at the very least. The other cases where cops shot unarmed suspects and weren't charged was because the suspect charged/attacked the officer and/or the officer perceived some sort of threat. It's all well and good to say that the officer should have shot them in the leg or whatever, but that's not how officers are trained. If you pull out your gun, you shoot to kill.

Like I said, maybe there are things we're not aware of from the video that will come to light in the trial. Maybe not. But if the video stands on its own, manslaughter will be the minimum conviction. I will stand by whatever the jury decides and so should everyone else. The chances of a jury being wrong is much lower than an average citizen that just saw a video with no other evidence.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Shooting someone in the leg is equally lethal to shooting them in the chest. This reality is rather counter intuitive... but true. Perforate those monster blood vessels in your leg and you'll bleed out just as fast as a heart shot. And the leg is easier to miss, which brings with it risks of hitting people and things beyond your target.

Law enforcement shoots to center mass because it's the most easily hit target. It's not even about lethality, it's about minimizing collateral damage. So anyone that says, well just shoot them in the leg is simply demonstrating colossal ignorance of reality, to the point of trying to bend the laws of physics.

@britechguy, you are correct that it's mostly wise to simply comply. However... The 4th Amendment: https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

Is rather quite clear.... but we live in a nation that's OK with civil forfeiture... so we'll just say it like we mean... thanks to centuries of idiots in the Supreme Court, we don't have 4th amendment rights anymore.

And on this one, Snopes can kiss my rear. I've been held at gun point by a little boy pretending to be a cop that had a badge more than once in my life. The next time it happens, I'll be yet another statistic, because sitting quietly and letting the system fix it later does NOT help. If it did we'd not have protests going on out there right now.

But you are still right to point out the fact that you should sit down and shut-up and comply... because the officers, even bad ones, know how to play the probable cause game better than any civilian.

 

[trevm999]

@sapphirescales I would be interested to hear your take on the videos of the police attacking arresting and attacking the press. Mostly I'm just curious what people would be saying to try and justify it.

 

[Computer Bloke]

Mostly I'm just curious what people would be saying to try and justify it.

 

[sapphirescales]

@sapphirescales I would be interested to hear your take on the videos of the police attacking arresting and attacking the press. Mostly I'm just curious what people would be saying to try and justify it.

It all depends on the situation and the context. The press aren't exempt from the law any more than anyone else is. If they're refusing to follow police orders, the police are going to use force.

 

[callthatgirl]

Unless there's clear evidence that the cop feared for his life or that letting up would have endangered himself and the other officers, he's guilty of manslaughter at the very least.

Doesn't matter, the police union is strong in Mpls and the politics are involved. I see it happening.

 

[Markverhyden]

That's not going to happen. They might not be convicted of murder, but they'll at least be found guilty of manslaughter.

This is where so many mistakes have been made. The DA's, who are many times elected so they're basically politicians, have one ear against the window listening to lynch mob outside waving their pitch forks, torches and nooses. As I've seen plenty of times they try to prosecute on the highest level charges so they can to satisfy the mob. As expected the higher the charges the harder it is to prove guilt.

If they'd just go with charges they know would stick almost all of those miscreant LEO's would be doing time.

 

[britechguy]

@Markverhyden,

That's what scares me about calling for the toughest charges in general. I'm way more worried about getting convictions and taking these rogue law enforcement officers off the street, while making examples of them, than I am about the charge being befitting the actual crime. When I heard that the charge against Chauvin had been raised to 2nd degree murder my first thought was: This is going to be much harder to prove, and much easier to get acquitted on.

The justice system is a game (and that's not a criticism, nor specific to the USA, it's just a fact) and you need to understand what the appropriate means are to achieve your ends, then use those. The higher the charges the easier it is to find some technicality that makes the actual actions not fit them perfectly.