Non-computer Corona virus thread

[Larry Sabo]

"More than 20 000 doses of the vaccine have been administered over the past few weeks in Norway and around 400 deaths normally occur among care home residents every week."

We will never know how many of the residents in the homes would have died had they caught COVID-19, but I suspect it would be higher than 23.

 

[britechguy]

Local news in Norway 23 frail patients died after getting the injection from common symptoms.

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

From the article itself:

Doctors in Norway have been told to conduct more thorough evaluations of very frail elderly patients in line to receive the Pfizer BioNTec vaccine against covid-19, following the deaths of 23 patients shortly after receiving the vaccine.
“It may be a coincidence, but we aren’t sure,” Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency (NOMA), told The BMJ. “There is no certain connection between these deaths and the vaccine.”

You present this as though something has been proven, and it hasn't. It's in the "we need to check it out, but it could be nothing," category right now.

Very frail elderly patients die, and die all the time. I'll await what the further analysis shows any link or not. And note and note well, they state very frail.

Addendum: There may be many who think that frail as used in medical literature is analogous to common usage, and it's really not. What many of us might consider frail doesn't even begin to encompass what it means when used in medical literature. For an abundance of references, see the results from: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+does+frail+mean+in+medical+studies.
You have to be quite medically compromised, and very often with many comorbidities, to be classed as frail. And if very gets stuck on in front of frail, the situation is far more dire.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Also keep in mind "very frail" translates into, "almost certainly would die" from COVID.

Which only makes this more heart wrenching... The article indicates that 13 of these deaths has been investigated and claims the side effects of the vaccine contributed to death.

But let that sink in... the side effects of this thing are nothing, the same localized inflammation and general body ache stuff associated with every other vaccine we've ever made. They were so weak they couldn't survive a flu shot!

There comes a point where you have to admit they're so weak a glass of water at the wrong time would have done them in. As in, there's literally nothing anyone can do.

Well, other than study them and use them for the datasets they represent to try and make better treatments in the future. But with current tech and circumstances? These people weren't long for this world no matter what we did or didn't do. It's heart breaking, but it's also life.

 

[britechguy]

Also keep in mind "very frail" translates into, "almost certainly would die" from COVID.

These people weren't long for this world no matter what we did or didn't do. It's heart breaking, but it's also life.

That's the long and the short of it. Very frail means knocking loudly on death's door, already. These are not individuals who are ever expected to go back to anything approaching a normal life, even a normal life for a typical elderly person.

I very recently lost a very dear friend (aged 83) to cancer, but even while she was in hospice she was given the first round of the Covid-19 vaccine. It was clearly not so much about protecting her, as it was clear at the time that she was probably not long for this world, but protecting the other residents and staff in the facility where she lived out her last days. The only way we're going to ever get back to normal is to achieve herd immunity so this thing stops spreading like wildfire and taking out a lot of people along the way. The vaccines are the only things that will allow us to achieve this goal for the population at large with a minimum of pain, suffering, and death.

When I was growing up you could not even enroll in kindergarten unless you had proof of having been vaccinated for smallpox. Ultimately, that sort of mandate may need to be put into place if enough of the populace were to refuse to be vaccinated. The risks from vaccination are minimal, at most, while the risks from a severe case of Covid-19, or an individual becoming an asymptomatic spreader, are huge. And the cost benefit analysis has to include society at large as part of the equations.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy Yeah, but the problem is from the data I've seen... these immunizations aren't actually preventing spread simply reducing symptoms. If all these shots do is turn most of us asymptomatic... I mean that's still a drastic improvement in that our medical systems aren't overwhelmed anymore. But it also means this never actually ends. (note, a ton of study is still ongoing here, we lack critical data)

And I agree with the schools, when the very air you breath becomes a lethal weapon being wielded against you or by you, regardless of intent... Well we have no choice but to require such things.

A vaccine is still our best hope, I'm not sure we actually have that magic bullet yet. But what we do have is still far better than nothing, even if only 50% effective.

 

[britechguy]

If the vaccines turn this into "not even the common cold" then they're an absolute and unquestionable success.

I'd take everyone getting Covid-19 and going through an asymptomatic period in a heartbeat. There are all sorts of viruses that move around the world that do this sort of thing routinely. They're not problematic.

I agree we don't know everything yet, and may never, as this is a fast mutating virus and we now have the ability to detect this almost in realtime, unlike anything in history.

But my biggest concern is getting life as close to "back to normal" as possible, whether that's by rendering infection impossible or changing it to completely non-life-threatening like "the common cold."

 

[Sky-Knight]

I think we're a year away from that goal at present (largely). We'd be there faster if our governments could actually competently administrate a mass vaccination effort, and every school required it for admittance as well as most employers requiring it for employment.

And note, this comment made by a libertarian conservative. There are no rights violated by the above. This is how property rights, and defense of life as a right work. Just in case some neo-conservative wanders in here thinking the usual BS found in the Trumpist camp.

 

[nlinecomputers]

From the article itself:

Doctors in Norway have been told to conduct more thorough evaluations of very frail elderly patients in line to receive the Pfizer BioNTec vaccine against covid-19, following the deaths of 23 patients shortly after receiving the vaccine.
“It may be a coincidence, but we aren’t sure,” Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency (NOMA), told The BMJ. “There is no certain connection between these deaths and the vaccine.”

You present this as though something has been proven, and it hasn't. It's in the "we need to check it out, but it could be nothing," category right now.

Very frail elderly patients die, and die all the time. I'll await what the further analysis shows any link or not. And note and note well, they state very frail.

Addendum: There may be many who think that frail as used in medical literature is analogous to common usage, and it's really not. What many of us might consider frail doesn't even begin to encompass what it means when used in medical literature. For an abundance of references, see the results from: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+does+frail+mean+in+medical+studies.
You have to be quite medically compromised, and very often with many comorbidities, to be classed as frail. And if very gets stuck on in front of frail, the situation is far more dire.

Exactly. They are classed very frail so did the vaccine push them over the edge or were they about to die anyway and the vaccine had no effect. The only thing that might come from it is a decision to not vaccinate such people as you are just wasting a dose on someone slated for death anyway. You don't give vaccines to people on hospice.

 

[britechguy]

You don't give vaccines to people on hospice.

Correction, you don't typically give vaccines to people who are hospice patients. There are exceptions, and COVID-19 is the biggest one among them, and for precisely the reason I stated. No one can be left as a potential "COVID petri dish" when they're in a facility that's composed almost exclusively of high-risk individuals (who are not medically frail).

 

[Sky-Knight]

Yeah, it's a liability nightmare if you don't vaccinate in this specific case.

 

[britechguy]

Yeah, it's a liability nightmare if you don't vaccinate in this specific case.

Absolutely. But it's also the only moral thing to do under those circumstances, too.

This isn't about me, me, me (for the generic me), but us, us, us. There was a time when the citizenry of the USA knew about this concept, particularly in regard to public health. I think that has faded partly due to political shifts and partly because those who had firsthand experience with the diseases that vaccination programs have virtually (or actually, in the case of smallpox) eradicated have passed from this life.

In virtually any country where some of these diseases are sadly still common there are lines for vaccinations every time they're available.

The anti-vax hoaxes that have gripped the USA via social media haven't helped one bit, either.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Yeah, it's a liability nightmare if you don't vaccinate in this specific case.

Not if the vaccine IS the tipping point to killing the patient. Sorry, but dealing with a contagious disease is part of the job, even in hospice. There is no liability with this at all any more than working in an ER is right now. Such a lawsuit will not have merit.

 

[britechguy]

Not if the vaccine IS the tipping point to killing the patient. Sorry, but dealing with a contagious disease is part of the job, even in hospice. There is no liability with this at all any more than working in an ER is right now. Such a lawsuit will not have merit.

When you can prove the initial assertion, you might have a point, but you can't, and it's going to be very difficult to reach any standard of proof for that.

In any care facility, dealing with contagious disease is a part of the job, and preventing its spread, AKA infection control, is the primary job - JOB ONE.

Contrary to your assertion, if you are found to have lax infection control protocols, the legal exposure can be (and very often is) HUGE.

 

[Galdorf]

We have idiots running the country they only did testing and quarantine on international travelers after travelers spread it everywhere now we even have it in my city now 10 people are dead from UK variant it spread during the lock down.

According to transport Canada 176 infected people per week were flying in from the UK no testing no quarantine they just walked through screening and to there destination now our lock down will be extended for months because of there incompetence.

 

[nlinecomputers]

When you can prove the initial assertion, you might have a point, but you can't, and it's going to be very difficult to reach any standard of proof for that.

In any care facility, dealing with contagious disease is a part of the job, and preventing its spread, AKA infection control, is the primary job - JOB ONE.

Contrary to your assertion, if you are found to have lax infection control protocols, the legal exposure can be (and very often is) HUGE.

With respect, you don’t know what you are talking about. Patient treatment options are up-to the patient themselves. What if they refuse. There is no liability of this kind. I can’t sue a hospital because they are treating a contagious patient, not me, who refuses a particular Treatment regimen. I can sue if they expose me to it through carelessness of some sort.

 

[britechguy]

With respect, you don’t know what you are talking about. Patient treatment options are up-to the patient themselves. What if they refuse. There is no liability of this kind. I can’t sue a hospital because they are treating a contagious patient, not me, who refuses a particular Treatment regimen. I can sue if they expose me to it through carelessness of some sort.

Actually, I do, you don't. Yes, you as a patient can refuse any treatment. During the lockdown period that will mean that there are additional restrictions on what you may, or may not, do/participate in within your facility.

And were the patient to refuse a treatment that were to expose other residents to immediate and significant danger, they can be outplaced.

Your version of black and white thinking has no place in medical facilities management. I've worked in rehabilitation centers, and with the folks in infection control. And that was before Covid-19.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Yeah @nlinecomputers You can refuse any treatment, but you don't have a right to be in a facility with others that are at risk because of your decision.

So anyone that's stuck in an assisted care facility, is going to be required to get the COVID shot to stay there, if for nothing else than a liability shield. That reality is ABSOLUTELY NUTS, but it's where we are. Because people sue for anything and everything, and they sue double hard when a loved one dies. Even if that loved one was so far gone a glass of water before bed can cause them to drown.

There probably will be anti-vax care facilities at some point... Goodness I don't want to see them... but they'll probably exist. Oh wait... I forgot... we call those trailer parks.

 

[nlinecomputers]

It is not a cut and dried as you think. As a rule, you can't be evicted from a facility simply for refusing to be vaccinated. And yet the facility has to provide a safe environment for its residents.

Nursing Home Residents LTC and COVID-19 Vaccine (natlawreview.com)

 

[Galdorf]

Covid is spreading like wild fire in schools here most are students from other countries some how they are getting around the quarantine and spreading the UK variant why don`t they shut them down till they can get vaccinated numbers are crazy 20-30 a day.

 

[Porthos]

Here in Texas, All mask and occupancy restrictions are going to be lifted next week.
In SA even if we want and are eligible for a vaccine it is next to impossible to get so far.

Our Governor is an idiot.