Would you take a Coronavirus Vaccine

[Sky-Knight]

Covid has been here for 18 months. The Spanish Flu ran it's course in 26 months. The fact that you can't do basic math tells me all we need to know about your critical thinking skills.

He's in Alabama... one of the states that forced us to do Common Core. So I'll cut him a bit of slack.

For my part I don't think masks work either, at least not a directly as supposed. I think they're more of a placebo that keeps good practices top of mind. Proper hand washing, distancing when possible, sterilizing between environments etc. It's these other actions that prevent the spread, if the mask helps too sure... but I'm not really sold on that. Yes they can work, but they require perfect wear and handling to help. And life... well doesn't really work with that.

Your comments about the Spanish Flu are spot on though, that pandemic was global and came to us in three waves. We're now in the SECOND wave of COVID. Which is working out to be substantially smaller than the first. Precisely because of the VACCINE. But I do fear we'll have another one before this is all over. The problem is, well... the flu is substantially less infectious. And it mutates MUCH MORE SLOWLY.

So this "wave" is for Delta. Do we get three waves for every variant? Because if we do... this will never end. Not until our governments at least start doing sane things like... no public school access for kids and families that aren't vaccinated. I don't have to worry about the private employment stuff, because the insurance companies are going to ensure that all employees have their shots soon enough, it'll be too expensive to employ anyone that doesn't. The numbers don't lie, and the money is already moving. So even if the government does nothing, the MARKET has already spoken.

Freedom works, it just takes a bit longer sometimes.

 

[britechguy]

Freedom works, it just takes a bit longer sometimes.

And, sadly, can result in a lot of needless suffering and death in a situation such as the one we're facing now.

I just find it so sad that a country that was once one of the world champions in mandated vaccination and mass vaccination programs to stop agents such as smallpox, measles, mumps, rubella, several forms of hepatitis, and human papilloma virus, to name but a few has come to where we are now. Subject matter experts are routinely ignored and ridiculed as know-nothings while actual know-nothings are elevated to positions of influence. How did we come to be so bass-ackwards? [I actually know the answer to that rhetorical question, and it's taken decades of concerted effort.]

But even the mandate for employees and contractors of the federal government should go a long way, and is absolutely necessary and overdue.

 

[Sky-Knight]

And, sadly, can result in a lot of needless suffering and death in a situation such as the one we're facing now.

I just find it so sad that a country that was once one of the world champions in mandated vaccination and mass vaccination programs to stop agents such as smallpox, measles, mumps, rubella, several forms of hepatitis, and human papilloma virus, to name but a few has come to where we are now. Subject matter experts are routinely ignored and ridiculed as know-nothings while actual know-nothings are elevated to positions of influence. How did we come to be so bass-ackwards? [I actually know the answer to that rhetorical question, and it's taken decades of concerted effort.]

But even the mandate for employees and contractors of the federal government should go a long way, and is absolutely necessary and overdue.

We've always been this backwards. Just in different areas. How many times have we had a white mob take power away from black people again? Jan 8th isn't a new event for our nation, but it is the "smallest" of such events. So perhaps we're finally growing out of this stupidity? But you're right, this COVID pandemic is sadly proving otherwise.

 

[britechguy]

We've always been this backwards. Just in different areas.

I can't disagree with that assessment. I just want to add that I was focusing strictly on public health and vaccination policies.

We are not "a shining city on the hill" in that arena anymore, not by a long shot.

I've never believed the myth of American exceptionalism in all things and think that, "My country, right or wrong," type patriotism is absolute poison wherever it occurs. One of America's great strengths is that there is a significant enough number of people, many of whom now get decried as "elites," that are willing to look at American in the present, and American history, as it actually is/was and focus on what is/was wrong.

I have a very great deal of pride in my country of birth, but we don't need to fix the things that people are rightfully proud of. But in order to become more rightfully proud of more things, we need to take an unflinching look at the "bad and the ugly," past and present, and resolve to make needed change. The current almost worship in a far too large segment of our population for disinformation definitely needs to be expunged. Respect for expert opinion and the knowledge that, in any given arena, there are actually people "that know more about it than you do" needs to become widely accepted again.

 

[SAFCasper]

Just thought I'd drop in with this image which helped me explain to family why the "40% of hospitalizations are vaccinated people" headlines are headline grabbing nonsense. Technically true but spun to sound a lot worse than it actually is.

https://i.redd.it/km870p4xn1d71.jpg

Yes over 40% of current hospitalisations in the UK are vaccinated people. What fails to be considered is over 90% of the UK adult population is at least single-dose vaccinated.

Take 1m people in a sample group of infected people and on average...
- 900k have been vaccinated
- 100k are unvaccinated
The figure that is 9x larger accounts for only 40% of hospitalisations. This is clear proof that vaccines are absolutely working! But it doesn't sell headlines like reporting 40% with no context to drum up fear.

 

[britechguy]

https://i.redd.it/km870p4xn1d71.jpg

Another demonstration of why "math is hard," particularly when complex interactions are involved. The use of graphics like this really do make it easier to digest, and to digest the full picture accurately.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Just thought I'd drop in with this image which helped me explain to family why the "40% of hospitalizations are vaccinated people" headlines are headline grabbing nonsense. Technically true but spun to sound a lot worse than it actually is.

https://i.redd.it/km870p4xn1d71.jpg

Yes over 40% of current hospitalisations in the UK are vaccinated people. What fails to be considered is over 90% of the UK adult population is at least single-dose vaccinated.

Take 1m people in a sample group of infected people and on average...
- 900k have been vaccinated
- 100k are unvaccinated
The figure that is 9x larger accounts for only 40% of hospitalisations. This is clear proof that vaccines are absolutely working! But it doesn't sell headlines like reporting 40% with no context to drum up fear.

Awesome. It's the covid version of the Monty Hall Problem.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Just thought I'd drop in with this image which helped me explain to family why the "40% of hospitalizations are vaccinated people" headlines are headline grabbing nonsense. Technically true but spun to sound a lot worse than it actually is.

https://i.redd.it/km870p4xn1d71.jpg

Yes over 40% of current hospitalisations in the UK are vaccinated people. What fails to be considered is over 90% of the UK adult population is at least single-dose vaccinated.

Take 1m people in a sample group of infected people and on average...
- 900k have been vaccinated
- 100k are unvaccinated
The figure that is 9x larger accounts for only 40% of hospitalisations. This is clear proof that vaccines are absolutely working! But it doesn't sell headlines like reporting 40% with no context to drum up fear.

This is amazing, and yes absolutely true.

If only we had 92% vaccination rates here... but the percentages doing percentage things in a clear flow that's easy to read is perfect.

 

[nlinecomputers]

The proof in that infographic is the low numbers. The amount of Vaccinated is 11.5x larger than unvaccinated. So for the worst-case scenario, you can take the unvaccinated results and multiply them by 11.5 to get the faux results of saying that the vaccines are worthless.

That would mean that the number of infected with the vaccine would be at 18,400 and the hospitalization rate would be 1,840.

 

[britechguy]

That would mean that the number of infected with the vaccine would be at 18,400 and the hospitalization rate would be 1,840.

Liar, sheep, fool!!

Some will never let facts and accurate extrapolation enter into their decision making.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Liar, sheep, fool!!

Some will never let facts and accurate extrapolation enter into their decision making.

I'm starting to see a correlation between anti-science people and those that despise new math... Could it be we have an entire class of people here that are simply bad at math? And for some reason have a hard time with the idea their kids might not have that problem?

I don't interact with other parents much on a personal level. But for my part I've always tried to ensure my kids would be better than me in every possible way. They're supposed to take what I give them and go farther, and in so doing take their piece of the nation farther. That's how the future is supposed to work. But doing all the same things year after year and expecting better results? Well... that's the literal definition of insanity.

So the resistance to change of any sort has always confused me. I'm a little slow to adopt somethings sometimes, but if I have a list of reasons to make a change I tend to make it. I don't like it when someone tells me I have to just because, you have to give me the why, then I'm all over it. So I try to give the why to others. When that doesn't work I'm just left stuck.

Like my mother-in-law, unvaccinated and living with practically all the comorbidities that all but guarantee death if COVID strikes. And when asked why she doesn't vaccinate she simply doesn't give an answer. I don't even know if she even know why she's made this irrational decision. She's just where she is, and nothing anyone can say will move her. My parents are both very much similar people, but my mom can't have the vaccine due to other conditions. Her doc doesn't want her getting the shot right now.

But back to the vaccine if this is accurate: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...-12-expected-mid-winter-fda-official-n1274057

I'll finally be able to get my youngest two their shots hopefully before Halloween. Once everyone in this house has their shots, I'll no longer care about family that doesn't. If they get it from a my pile of asymptomatic and vaccinated kids and suffer for it, that's on them. I'm done hiding from the world. And I'm rather done being "understanding". If people want to be patently stupid that's fine, they can suffer their own consequences.

 

[pctechforhire]

I'm done hiding from the world.

lol. I haven't been hiding this entire time. No vax. No mask. Never got covid. And probably will never get covid. I even had direct contact with it when my wife and daughter (avid mask wearers...) got it. Still didn't get it. But your attitude is EXACTLY why this terrible strain of flu isn't going away. More and more people are dying from suicide (more than covid itself) because they can't handle hiding from the world. More and more people are dying from the gene therapy, more than any other vaccine. PCR test couldn't even tell the difference between covid and the flu. And there isn't even a test available for the supposed delta variant. Everyone says they are pro-science, but ignore the fact that the survival rate is over 99% (97% for those over the age of 70). You mention your kids. Kids under 17, 99.9997% survival. But kids are dying from inflamed hearts and blood clots from the gene therapy. I'm not taking chances like that with my kids knowing that they WILL survive it, IF they get it. Too many studies show how little kids get it, and how little they transmit it.

If the vaxxers want to be "patently stupid" and get the jab or wear a mask, so be it. But it's also your attitude of calling us "patently stupid" that this country is so heavily divided. Instead of learning together, you want to belittle us critical thinkers. We CAN learn together. We CAN study the numbers together. But that attitude isn't going to help us. But please, get the death jab if you want. I'm not going to stop you. Just STOP telling me to get it. And STOP being so hateful. AND be prepared to apologize to all of us critical thinkers when it's proven just how wrong you are.

 

[britechguy]

But it's also your attitude of calling us "patently stupid" that this country is so heavily divided. Instead of learning together,

Calling something what it is may divide people, but it's also necessary. Anti-vax garbage, all of it, must not be tolerated. It has zero basis in fact.

And it's very, very rich indeed for you to lecture about "learning together." The anti-vax crowd, and you're part of it, is impervious to learning. And that's a huge, huge problem for everyone.

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.
~ Harlan Ellison

In a modern society where everyone thinks their opinion deserves to be heard nothing annoys me more than individuals who mistake their personal preferences for fact.
~ "TheCruyffGurn" in comments on The Guardian, 8/13/2014

The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’
~ Isaac Asimov

 

[nlinecomputers]

There you go again flunking basic math.

More and more people are dying from suicide (more than covid itself)

Wrong, very wrong, not even close. Now admittedly the latest year I could find numbers is 2018. According to the CDC the number of suicides was 48,344. The number of deaths in the United States in 2020 for Covid-19 was ~375,000. I’ll stipulate that the last year has been rough and when we get totals the number will be appalling. But they will not be 6 digits and certainly not over 1/3 million.

Dude you are a walking fountain of hyperbole.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@pctechforhire WTF are you on about? Inflamed hearts? That's LONG COVID doing that, not the vaccine.

Are you telling me the anti-vax whack jobs have associated the symptoms of COVID to the thing that's stopping it? That's a new level of stupid. Thanks for letting me know exactly how low we are now.

 

[nlinecomputers]

@pctechforhire WTF are you on about? Inflamed hearts? That's LONG COVID doing that, not the vaccine.

Are you telling me the anti-vax whack jobs have associated the symptoms of COVID to the thing that's stopping it? That's a new level of stupid. Thanks for letting me know exactly how low we are now.

He is an idiot. He is claiming that a PCR test can’t tell the difference between Covid and influenza. Other than both being viruses they have very little in common. You have a closer genetic match between a chimpanzee and a Sea urchin.

 

[Sky-Knight]

He is an idiot. He is claiming that a PCR test can’t tell the difference between Covid and influenza. Other than both being viruses they have very little in common. You have a closer genetic match between a chimpanzee and a Sea urchin.

I don't like direct calls of such, as much as I've been known to make them myself. But this specific circumstance I think I'll take the tears literally off the faces of the local nurses treating this nightmare over misinterpreted data. The only way you can be so ignorant is to be willfully so at this point. I get not trusting the news, I get not trusting the government, fine... go find a nurse walking the COVID ward at the local ER. It's not hard, and there are buckets of them that will happily take time out of their days to share some of the pain they've survived.

But nope... it's fake...

So Fake that Trump and his Wife got their shots in Jan. The ONLY shots available then were mRNA based by the way.
Biden and his wife got their shots in December.

But nope, we'll still see people following the likes of Rand Paul, claiming he's a doctor we should listen. And yes, he is an MD. But he's not a virologist, or an epidemiologist... he's an eye surgeon! I'd trust him to get me a new set of glasses, or fix my grandmother's glaucoma... not know how a cold moves through a global population.

 

[britechguy]

the likes of Rand Paul,

Who deserves his place in hell. He absolutely does know the basics of how infectious vectors spread. Anyone with medical training does. And when they sow doubt and uncertainty when they know what they're saying is completely untrue, it's repugnant.

He has repeatedly ignored the Hippocratic oath, which he swore to, "First, do no harm."

 

[VISA MC]

But nope... it's fake...

I may have misread something, but in the last pages 12,13 and 14 nobody said it’s fake.

 

[Sky-Knight]

I may have misread something, but in the last pages 12,13 and 14 nobody said it’s fake.

Downplaying the risk to that of any other airborne respiratory virus, and / or claiming the vaccines are genetic therapies, and / or blaming the vaccine for the symptoms of the actual virus are all in effect "it's fake."