Would you take a Coronavirus Vaccine

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy Even if we add the COVID vaccine to the list of things required to attend public schooling, I'm not sure we'll hit the vaccination rates we need. Out here, "religious exemption" is just filling out a form at the office. There's no challenge, no verification, just fill out this form and your crotch goblin can attend without vaccination. I hate this fact, and I'd love to see the list amended anyway... but the outcome will be short of what we need.

And we DO have measles outbreaks here... regularly. The whys come from manifold reasons. From illegal migrants bringing it across the border into a community isolated and afraid of any official interaction for fear of deportation, to Queen Karens that insist the MMR causes autism.

Arizona part of second-largest U.S. measles outbreak since 2000

The number of cases reported nationwide is now the second-highest since 2000.

www.azcentral.com

That happened practically just before the pandemic started. AZ's track record of infectious disease control is terrible, and has been so most of my life. If we actually enforced at least our school enrollment requirements, I think we'd see a drastic change in outcomes. And there is pressure to do that growing, now that remote learning has been in place for some time now, there's growing pressure to push all those that refuse to vaccinate into home learning scenarios. A situation I'm perfectly fine with, it seems like plenty of "reasonable accommodation" to me.

But between here and there a bucket of small businesses simply cannot afford such things in all cases, so we're going to see people getting laid off because they're simply not employable anymore. If that's by choice or not is almost irrelevant.

 

[britechguy]

@Sky-Knight

I'm not even attempting to refute what you've said, as I know that it is true, as I've had a cousin living in Chandler, AZ, for decades now.

But this is a problem that really does cut along philosophical lines which have become hardened political lines in recent years. I am old enough (almost 60) to remember dutifully getting all of my vaccines before ever being presented at the school door (actually, school bus door, but . . .). And my father, who was born in 1919, was only too well aware of the medical miracle that vaccination was, and of the suffering and death it prevented, and neither he nor my mother would, for even half a second, considered having us unvaccinated. And this was in Western PA in the "sphere of Pittsburgh" as far as political influence then.

The eastern states through the midwest to this day tend (note: tend) to fall in line behind any effort, whether it's specifically public health related or not, where "inconvenience" to the individual is considered not just secondary, but way down the list when compared to protecting the public at large, which is what one is always a part of, anyway.

The South and West were always of the more "rugged individualist," and, "you can't tell me what to do," disposition. And that's still the case.

But what has me really frightened these days is that even those general patterns are not holding in the ways they once did. There are pockets of insane, "You can't tell me what to do!," and, "You can't tell me I need to have my kid vaccinated!," sentiment showing up, in relative force, in areas where that would never have occurred before. I chalk it up to a lack of critical thinking skills (which has always been present) coupled with the dominance that know-nothing social media sources have gained in recent years.

When I was a child it really was pretty much accepted that, in almost any sphere one could name other than one's own area of work, that there were, indeed, "people who know better than I do," and that the smart thing to do was to listen to those people when you knew nothing. The last 40 years or so, even before the rise of social media, has seen a concerted campaign from certain political quarters to instill active disrespect of and resistance to subject matter expertise in virtually any area you can name. We now have far too many people who believe that all opinions are created equal and that "fair and balanced" means giving equal credence to complete garbage and top-notch expertise.

We are living in the sad end result of something Isaac Asimov observed back in the 1970s: The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’

Aldous Huxley put it best, when it comes to the falsity of that false equivalence: Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.

And Martin Luther King, Jr., nailed it about the result of acting on the belief that ignorance and knowledge are equivalent:
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

 

[Galdorf]

Now if you go to the movies you must show proof of vaccination same goes for all restaurants and any public gatherings like weddings and funerals as well as old age homes and arenas.
So if you are UN-vaccinated you can`t go to see venom 2 or visit your parents or grand parents at old age home just recently a local police officer was arrested and charged for entering an arena without showing proof of vaccination she also was heard screaming you nazis.

Even in my store because there is social gathering my friend is forced to check proof of vaccination sometimes we have as many as 50 people during gaming tournaments.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/durham-mpp-vaccination-status-1.6197581

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...signs-misrepresented-vaccine-status-1.6195305

There are talks going on they also want to limit access to large scale malls only place you can go un-vaccinated will be grocery stores and corner stores soon.

As for businesses my friends daughter showed me an email that stated if you are not vaccinated you will be fired NO exceptions and local hospital as well i have a friend that works there.

 

[britechguy]

Now if you go to the movies you must show proof of vaccination same goes for all restaurants and any public gatherings like weddings and funerals as well as old age homes and arenas.

Which is perfectly appropriate given our current circumstances. It's not permanent, and it's stupid to call it an unjustified infringement on your freedom. It's no more unjustified than having to stop at a stop sign or stop light. Your individual rights are constrained within the framework of those of others, and always have been.

You can choose to be unvaccinated, but that choice should have consequences beyond just the increased probability of contracting Covid. We recognize this for plenty of other vaccines already and no one batted an eyelash about any of them from a public health perspective.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@Galdorf Life is the priority freedom, everything else is negotiable.

COVID is an existential threat, and there are areas housing the most vulnerable. If you don't have your shot, you shouldn't have access to those areas.

As for the private businesses, this is a liability shield. I've been warning people for months, as soon as the FDA puts the stamp of approval on a vaccine ANY vaccine, the insurance companies will go to work. They are now requiring employers to mandate vaccination, or pay an increase in rates. Medical insurance providers will do the same at the end of the year as renewals start here in the US. Being unvaccinated will be treated similarly to smoking. You can continue to be stupid and do it, but you're going to pay for the privilege. The FDA has great global influence on these things, because it's considered extremely conservative. So if it signs off on something, we KNOW it works.

Now, this is where I disagree with @britechguy. This is NOT temporary, because the reality hasn't actually changed. When there's an infectious agent in play our medical realities must react. Because again, life is all that matters. Being unvaccinated makes you an existential risk to some people. You cannot expect those people to bend to your whims. Your choice in this matter is "driving them into the sea". You should expect them to fight back, with lethal force if necessary. And this is right, this is normal, and this is what all of our freedoms are built on.

This fight will continue, and it will never end. The nature of it will change, and this pandemic will end. But there will be another event that brings this reality to the fore yet again. The only change will be the subset of the population put at risk.

 

[Galdorf]

The problem is having to police vaccine status some restaurants had to hire bouncers at the front door which now they have to pay for i am not talking about ones that have bars now prices have to go up i have seen 100% markups after they made vaccines mandatory to pay for it.

Inflation is getting out of control looking at my grocery bill prices of items have doubled here past 6 months.

I have 4 customers that are police officers city and provincial they have been getting so many calls about vaccine check people being assaulted that they spend most of there time going to these events.

There is too much vaccine miss information out there billions of people have been vaccinated numbers show there is nothing wrong with the vaccines they are voting here to make covid-19 mandatory it is almost time i get my covid 19 booster.

 

[britechguy]

This is NOT temporary,

The "this" I am talking about is the vaccine checking. Once the mandates have been in place long enough, it no longer remains necessary. I really don't expect to be vaccine-checked everywhere I go for the remainder of my life.

I fully expect that, eventually, Covid vaccination is going to be rolled right in to the "usual vaccine protocol" in every country in the world that has one, and no one will bat an eye. [Or at least no one other than the rabid anti-vaxxers, and they're a class unto themselves, and don't limit their inanity to any single vaccine.]

 

[Galdorf]

They are tracking a new variant that has gone through millions of children and has evolved to kill them as fast as frail old people it still does not have a name yet since it is so new.

They need to start vaccinating children quickly as this one spreads very easily.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/04/us/va-child-death-covid-trnd/index.html

 

[nlinecomputers]

They are tracking a new variant that has gone through millions of children and has evolved to kill them as fast as frail old people it still does not have a name yet since it is so new.

They need to start vaccinating children quickly as this one spreads very easily.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/04/us/va-child-death-covid-trnd/index.html

I'm sorry do you have a link that mentions the millions of children or the new variant? This article while tragic doesn't appear to mention this. I read it quickly so feel free to point it out if I overlooked this.

 

[britechguy]

This article while tragic doesn't appear to mention this.

It does not mention this. I keep up, closely, with all the developments around Covid, and the article itself states, "While the number of children who tested positive for Covid-19 declined slightly, children made up a greater percentage of the total new US Covid-19 cases in the most recent week over the previous week, accounting for nearly 27% of all cases reported nationwide, the American Academy of Pediatrics reported Monday."

Covid-19 is not taken seriously by far too many, as the article also states, "less than 10 miles down the road in the school district where Nicole teaches, a two-hour school board meeting took place where parents advocated for the district to drop its mask mandate. Comments like, "We didn't know anything about Covid at first, but now we do, we know it's (Covid) nothing to be afraid of if you're healthy," and "Covid is effectively over," can be heard on camera during the meeting." But promoting hysteria by claiming something not in evidence, at all, only makes the doubters have even more reason to doubt.

Stick to facts produced by well-known and unimpeachable sources, like the various national health services in any one of the western democracies, the WHO, etc. The CDC has been assiduously following variants and their impacts, and promptly communicating about same.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy I cannot take anything the WHO says seriously when they basically helped China downplay COVID"s seriousness, hiding it from the world in the early days... and now they're running around whining that the US is calling for boosters... when we're throwing away doses of vaccine by the bucket with no reasonable way to ship it to the places the WHO says are more deserving!

CDC I'll accept, though with a grain of salt some days... as it is run by the same government that created a list of "essential businesses". That's a TRUMP administration creation for those not paying attention... and represents the greatest act of tyranny by the US Federal government since the passing of the Patriot Act.

Not that anyone cares, or will even do anything about any of this.

 

[britechguy]

@Sky-Knight: I refuse, as a general principle, to operate in, "The Perfect is the Enemy of the Good," mode.

Nothing's perfect, but I'll still take data from both the WHO and CDC (and NIH, too) as well as the health services from virtually any industrialized democracy (real one, not "in name only") one can name pretty much at face value and accept that errors, and they will occur, will be corrected.

Science in general has to work on best available information in situations like we're dealing with for Covid and best available information changes as new data comes in.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@Sky-Knight: I refuse, as a general principle, to operate in, "The Perfect is the Enemy of the Good," mode.

Nothing's perfect, but I'll still take data from both the WHO and CDC (and NIH, too) as well as the health services from virtually any industrialized democracy (real one, not "in name only") one can name pretty much at face value and accept that errors, and they will occur, will be corrected.

Science in general has to work on best available information in situations like we're dealing with for Covid and best available information changes as new data comes in.

I'll take their data, but their Director-General needs to go. I'm more qualified to do that job than he is, which is an embarrassingly low bar.

But that's the thing isn't it? Big business or big government... doesn't matter. If you have the right connections it doesn't matter how badly you screw up, or how many lives you ruin... just ignore it and move on. A slap on the wrist at worst.

Did we lockup all the doctors that killed millions of Americans with opioids? Nope... Just dismantled the company in that made them, turned them into a government owned company (literal socialism), all negotiated by Trump personally while his supporters scream socialism / communism as a hate word.

I'm tired... and while you're right that no organization is perfect, I've had it with the fact that I get fired for not being able to restore a file someone else deleted, but these pricks get to bring home six figure plus paychecks literally killing people.

 

[Galdorf]

What really bothers me is this some states-countries have a requirement for organ transplants you and donor must be fully vaccinated NO exceptions not even medical that means if you are deathly allergic to covid vaccines and you need an organ transplant your sol does not matter that you are going to die.

Not even natural immunity is counted so if you had covid before and got over it they will still let you die even death is not an exception.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2...ed-transplants-for-refusing-covid-vaccine.cnn

 

[nlinecomputers]

If I am going to donate my organs the recipient had better be qualified to accept them. That means otherwise healthy and not taking dangerous medical risks. Not every one qualifies for transplants.

 

[Galdorf]

If I am going to donate my organs the recipient had better be qualified to accept them. That means otherwise healthy and not taking dangerous medical risks. Not every one qualifies for transplants.

Yes they are both healthy but are denied because they have not taken a vaccine for an illness they now don`t have just imagine a hospital turning down a family member because off an illness they could catch and not have and then they let them die
.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Yes they are both healthy but are denied because they have not taken a vaccine for an illness they now don`t have just imagine a hospital turning down a family member because off an illness they could catch and not have.

Oh bullsh-t. If you are going to have a transplant you need to be vaccinated. For measles, the flu, and yes Covid! When you get a transplant you're have severe stress on the immune system, so you have to take every vaccine known. If you can't or will not take all the vaccines they will deny your claim and move on to someone who can/will qualify. It's called not wasting resources on a hopeless case.

 

[callthatgirl]

Unpopular opinion but the truth
This whole country is going down the drain because of forced vaccine mandates.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Unpopular opinion but the truth
This whole country is going down the drain because of forced vaccine mandates.

Only because people are ditching common sense for political tribalism. Republicans used to be about law and order, doing your part for the public good but they fell for a macho, charismatic, narcissistic racist and blew up every thing considered conservative. You are old enough to have a smallpox scar, got polio vaccines. Both are extinct. (Polio type 2, type 1 and 3 are still around). I had to be vaccinated to go to grade school, revacinated to go to college.

 

[callthatgirl]

Unpopular opinion but the truth
Current administration is allowing 1000's of unvaxxed in the country. Who's idea was that? Not Trumps.